Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?
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This is the case for all my reciprocating engine aircraft. That dynamic is just not something I simulate yet, as I consider it slightly dangerous to disconnect fuel flow control from user hardware. No telling what the future might hold, though.
@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
That dynamic is just not something I simulate yet, as I consider it slightly dangerous to disconnect fuel flow control from user hardware. No telling what the future might hold, though.
If you consider this to be slightly dangerous, you could add an option to your tablet so people could disable realistic start-up if it doesn't work with their hardware? Personally I'd love to see a realistic Lycoming start procedures.
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@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
That dynamic is just not something I simulate yet, as I consider it slightly dangerous to disconnect fuel flow control from user hardware. No telling what the future might hold, though.
If you consider this to be slightly dangerous, you could add an option to your tablet so people could disable realistic start-up if it doesn't work with their hardware? Personally I'd love to see a realistic Lycoming start procedures.
@mburkhard I appreciate the suggestion, but intercepting user hardware inputs is an all-or-nothing prospect. I have ideas about how I would do this based on previous experiments. It's just not something I've tackled yet. My aircraft have grown in scope and complexity by several times over since my first offerings, and I always add a bundle of new features with every release. Perhaps this will be the next one. I just need to get through the first days of the release, as it can be difficult for me to keep up with all the messages as a solo developer.
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@Flocat89 Haha I've flown some IRL but never a plane with one of em newfangled injection systems. Is my understanding correct here, that it's essentially a constant flow injection system, so you need the mixture up with the electric pump on for a few seconds to prime but if you leave it up with the pump running or even with the electric pump off once the mechanical one starts turning when you crank it'll just happily keep injecting fuel and completely flood it.
No worries, your English is more than fine.
@jasmits ok. Lycoming cold Start:
Open Throttle 1/4
Mix on Full LEAN / CutOFF
Fuelpump on
Mix FullRich for about 3 to 5 sec (depends on any aircraft a little bit)
After 3-5 sec, imidiatly mix back to CutOFF (or engine will flood!!)
FuelPump Off
Starter Engage, when Engine Starts imidiatly Press the Mix to full rich and let go the StarterOn Warm Start is almost the same but you have to skip the Priming with the Fuelpump.
when do do this all correctly it is NOT a guarante that the engine will start imidiatly, some times you have to try couple time and Play a little bit with the Thorttle lever. in this video you can see how to start a lycoming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPjMVnrfW8c -
@jasmits ok. Lycoming cold Start:
Open Throttle 1/4
Mix on Full LEAN / CutOFF
Fuelpump on
Mix FullRich for about 3 to 5 sec (depends on any aircraft a little bit)
After 3-5 sec, imidiatly mix back to CutOFF (or engine will flood!!)
FuelPump Off
Starter Engage, when Engine Starts imidiatly Press the Mix to full rich and let go the StarterOn Warm Start is almost the same but you have to skip the Priming with the Fuelpump.
when do do this all correctly it is NOT a guarante that the engine will start imidiatly, some times you have to try couple time and Play a little bit with the Thorttle lever. in this video you can see how to start a lycoming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPjMVnrfW8c@Flocat89 I understand the 'how' from the Aerostar, I was just curious if you knew owning an injected Lycoming if my assumption about the 'why' is correct. As in, as long as either pump is running to provide pressure the mixture is essentially directly controlling fuel flow into the cylinders, hence why it'll flood if you don't have the mixture in the cutoff position besides priming till the engine starts to catch.
Whereas with carbs the fuel isn't going to be drawn out of the nozzle without airflow anyway regardless of what you're doing with the mixture
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@Flocat89 I understand the 'how' from the Aerostar, I was just curious if you knew owning an injected Lycoming if my assumption about the 'why' is correct. As in, as long as either pump is running to provide pressure the mixture is essentially directly controlling fuel flow into the cylinders, hence why it'll flood if you don't have the mixture in the cutoff position besides priming till the engine starts to catch.
Whereas with carbs the fuel isn't going to be drawn out of the nozzle without airflow anyway regardless of what you're doing with the mixture
@jasmits sorry i dont have understand your last message that was not against you, i really dont speak good english, soo sorry when i dont have give you the right answer.do you mean what is the technical reason why its will flooded with mix on rich?? its the specific lycoming injection system that works different from the continental injection system or carb engines. But i cant explain you more details about that, but you will find technically descriptions online of course, i am only a pilot not an aircraft mechanic, for me it is not soo important to know any specfic system works technically in any little detail. is that what you want to know? sorry again when iam wrong
Kind greetings from Brasil.
and if you have any other questions feel always free to ask me, i try my best to answer you! -
@jasmits sorry i dont have understand your last message that was not against you, i really dont speak good english, soo sorry when i dont have give you the right answer.do you mean what is the technical reason why its will flooded with mix on rich?? its the specific lycoming injection system that works different from the continental injection system or carb engines. But i cant explain you more details about that, but you will find technically descriptions online of course, i am only a pilot not an aircraft mechanic, for me it is not soo important to know any specfic system works technically in any little detail. is that what you want to know? sorry again when iam wrong
Kind greetings from Brasil.
and if you have any other questions feel always free to ask me, i try my best to answer you!@Flocat89 yeah exactly, the technical reason. No worries haha I’ll just look it up. I’d been vaguely curious since I got into flying the Aerostar, first time I’d come across that. I’m guessing it’s just because the mixture is more or less directly controlling the fuel flow, so even with the electric pump off once the engine starts cranking and the mechanical pump starts turning it’ll flood itself unless you luck out and it catches almost immediately.
Appreciate it! Greetings from Bend, Oregon in the US
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@mburkhard I appreciate the suggestion, but intercepting user hardware inputs is an all-or-nothing prospect. I have ideas about how I would do this based on previous experiments. It's just not something I've tackled yet. My aircraft have grown in scope and complexity by several times over since my first offerings, and I always add a bundle of new features with every release. Perhaps this will be the next one. I just need to get through the first days of the release, as it can be difficult for me to keep up with all the messages as a solo developer.
@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
@mburkhard I appreciate the suggestion, but intercepting user hardware inputs is an all-or-nothing prospect. I have ideas about how I would do this based on previous experiments. It's just not something I've tackled yet. Perhaps this will be the next one.
All good @Black-Square , I don't think anyone in this thread expects you to do this immediately. To me it's more of a case of being a victim of your own success. People love your work, and since the competition has managed to offer a realistic Lycoming engine startup, people now think "well if they can do it, surely Black Square can do it too"
Whenever you get around to it and give this fabulous Commander the realistic engine start it deserves, we will welcome it. Don't feel stressed about it. -
Hopefully we will get the correct startup procedure for this type of engine one day. No pressure
Other than this, it is a gorgeous addon.@Rimshot said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
No pressure
This you on AVSIM?
Oh bummer. I really don't like this. I probably wouldn't have purchased the plane if I had known this before, no matter how good it is besides this.
Please forgive me. I couldn't resist. All in jest, I promise.
This has bugged me for many years too, but you can read above why I've been resistant to it from a practical standpoint. Also, I'm never sure what features are most important to my users on any given project. With each release, I hear resounding requests for something that has never come up before with any of my aircraft. This one is no exception. In each case, I do my best to overcome the technical challenges and include it in an update, or in my next aircraft if it needs some beta testing first. Hopefully this one will be no different.
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@Rimshot said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
No pressure
This you on AVSIM?
Oh bummer. I really don't like this. I probably wouldn't have purchased the plane if I had known this before, no matter how good it is besides this.
Please forgive me. I couldn't resist. All in jest, I promise.
This has bugged me for many years too, but you can read above why I've been resistant to it from a practical standpoint. Also, I'm never sure what features are most important to my users on any given project. With each release, I hear resounding requests for something that has never come up before with any of my aircraft. This one is no exception. In each case, I do my best to overcome the technical challenges and include it in an update, or in my next aircraft if it needs some beta testing first. Hopefully this one will be no different.
@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
This you on AVSIM?
Yep, that's me, you caught me
I am indeed a sucker for realism and probably would not have made the purchase had I known this earlier. I do appreciate all your hard work though, as well as your consideration to implement a correct startup procedure. We'll see what the future brings 
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@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
This you on AVSIM?
Yep, that's me, you caught me
I am indeed a sucker for realism and probably would not have made the purchase had I known this earlier. I do appreciate all your hard work though, as well as your consideration to implement a correct startup procedure. We'll see what the future brings @Rimshot I do hope you forgive me for my jest. I rarely do such a thing. I know you've been posting here for many of my aircraft over years, and always in great faith. I remember your username from Starship, I believe.
It seems like an unfortunate reason to miss out on the other 99.9% of virtual flying fun with the 114, but I suppose that just means you're on the top of the priority list for this feature. I'll do my best to make you proud!
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@Flocat89 yeah exactly, the technical reason. No worries haha I’ll just look it up. I’d been vaguely curious since I got into flying the Aerostar, first time I’d come across that. I’m guessing it’s just because the mixture is more or less directly controlling the fuel flow, so even with the electric pump off once the engine starts cranking and the mechanical pump starts turning it’ll flood itself unless you luck out and it catches almost immediately.
Appreciate it! Greetings from Bend, Oregon in the US
@jasmits Sorry for the late reply to your question, i have talked with my Aircraft mechanic for you. You are actually 100% correct about the "why"! The Lycoming Bendix system is a continuous flow system, so it floods the engine immediately on "Rich" before the engine catches. Continental's system is engine-driven and RPM-dependent, which is why it doesn't flood during start. Spot on!
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@Rimshot I do hope you forgive me for my jest. I rarely do such a thing. I know you've been posting here for many of my aircraft over years, and always in great faith. I remember your username from Starship, I believe.
It seems like an unfortunate reason to miss out on the other 99.9% of virtual flying fun with the 114, but I suppose that just means you're on the top of the priority list for this feature. I'll do my best to make you proud!
@Black-Square Thank you so much for this amazing attitude and for putting this feature on top of your priority list! It is incredibly refreshing to see a developer who truly listens to the community when we talk about real-world physics. Please take your time to get through the release stress first, we will gladly wait for the update. This will be a Amazing realistic Improvment!! Thank you very much again!!
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@Black-Square Your jest is forgiven. You may not remember me correctly, as I have only lurked around here the last year or so, since I commented on your Bonanza. I do not own the Starship. I hear what you are saying about missing out on all of the fun once that engine is running. Maybe I'll get over it until you make me proud
All the best! -
@Black-Square Thank you so much for this amazing attitude and for putting this feature on top of your priority list! It is incredibly refreshing to see a developer who truly listens to the community when we talk about real-world physics. Please take your time to get through the release stress first, we will gladly wait for the update. This will be a Amazing realistic Improvment!! Thank you very much again!!
@Flocat89 Thank you for this kind message. It's quite easy to listen to the community when you're right! I've flown plenty of fuel injected IO-360's, so I'm well familiar with the three-handed technique required to start them. Implementing this in a satisfying manner that won't leave new users frustrated, won't leave advanced users disappointed, and won't leave everyone struggling with hardware controls, however, is another story.
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If the intention is to sell this aircraft for consoles (which I believe it is), then you probably also have to consider the practical aspects of using a controller. If you’re cranking the starter, is it then possible to advance the mixture simultaneously? Maybe it is, I don’t use a controller. But before complaints start to roll in, from controller users that can’t start the engine, might be worth checking out.
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If the intention is to sell this aircraft for consoles (which I believe it is), then you probably also have to consider the practical aspects of using a controller. If you’re cranking the starter, is it then possible to advance the mixture simultaneously? Maybe it is, I don’t use a controller. But before complaints start to roll in, from controller users that can’t start the engine, might be worth checking out.
@ploodovic Now you're thinking of all the things that keep me up at night
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@ploodovic Now you're thinking of all the things that keep me up at night
@Black-Square I hear the brain solves problems while we sleep. Have you tried that?
