Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?
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Hopefully we will get the correct startup procedure for this type of engine one day. No pressure
Other than this, it is a gorgeous addon.@Rimshot said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
No pressure
This you on AVSIM?
Oh bummer. I really don't like this. I probably wouldn't have purchased the plane if I had known this before, no matter how good it is besides this.
Please forgive me. I couldn't resist. All in jest, I promise.
This has bugged me for many years too, but you can read above why I've been resistant to it from a practical standpoint. Also, I'm never sure what features are most important to my users on any given project. With each release, I hear resounding requests for something that has never come up before with any of my aircraft. This one is no exception. In each case, I do my best to overcome the technical challenges and include it in an update, or in my next aircraft if it needs some beta testing first. Hopefully this one will be no different.
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@Rimshot said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
No pressure
This you on AVSIM?
Oh bummer. I really don't like this. I probably wouldn't have purchased the plane if I had known this before, no matter how good it is besides this.
Please forgive me. I couldn't resist. All in jest, I promise.
This has bugged me for many years too, but you can read above why I've been resistant to it from a practical standpoint. Also, I'm never sure what features are most important to my users on any given project. With each release, I hear resounding requests for something that has never come up before with any of my aircraft. This one is no exception. In each case, I do my best to overcome the technical challenges and include it in an update, or in my next aircraft if it needs some beta testing first. Hopefully this one will be no different.
@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
This you on AVSIM?
Yep, that's me, you caught me
I am indeed a sucker for realism and probably would not have made the purchase had I known this earlier. I do appreciate all your hard work though, as well as your consideration to implement a correct startup procedure. We'll see what the future brings 
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@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
This you on AVSIM?
Yep, that's me, you caught me
I am indeed a sucker for realism and probably would not have made the purchase had I known this earlier. I do appreciate all your hard work though, as well as your consideration to implement a correct startup procedure. We'll see what the future brings @Rimshot I do hope you forgive me for my jest. I rarely do such a thing. I know you've been posting here for many of my aircraft over years, and always in great faith. I remember your username from Starship, I believe.
It seems like an unfortunate reason to miss out on the other 99.9% of virtual flying fun with the 114, but I suppose that just means you're on the top of the priority list for this feature. I'll do my best to make you proud!
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@Flocat89 yeah exactly, the technical reason. No worries haha I’ll just look it up. I’d been vaguely curious since I got into flying the Aerostar, first time I’d come across that. I’m guessing it’s just because the mixture is more or less directly controlling the fuel flow, so even with the electric pump off once the engine starts cranking and the mechanical pump starts turning it’ll flood itself unless you luck out and it catches almost immediately.
Appreciate it! Greetings from Bend, Oregon in the US
@jasmits Sorry for the late reply to your question, i have talked with my Aircraft mechanic for you. You are actually 100% correct about the "why"! The Lycoming Bendix system is a continuous flow system, so it floods the engine immediately on "Rich" before the engine catches. Continental's system is engine-driven and RPM-dependent, which is why it doesn't flood during start. Spot on!
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@Rimshot I do hope you forgive me for my jest. I rarely do such a thing. I know you've been posting here for many of my aircraft over years, and always in great faith. I remember your username from Starship, I believe.
It seems like an unfortunate reason to miss out on the other 99.9% of virtual flying fun with the 114, but I suppose that just means you're on the top of the priority list for this feature. I'll do my best to make you proud!
@Black-Square Thank you so much for this amazing attitude and for putting this feature on top of your priority list! It is incredibly refreshing to see a developer who truly listens to the community when we talk about real-world physics. Please take your time to get through the release stress first, we will gladly wait for the update. This will be a Amazing realistic Improvment!! Thank you very much again!!
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@Black-Square Your jest is forgiven. You may not remember me correctly, as I have only lurked around here the last year or so, since I commented on your Bonanza. I do not own the Starship. I hear what you are saying about missing out on all of the fun once that engine is running. Maybe I'll get over it until you make me proud
All the best! -
@Black-Square Thank you so much for this amazing attitude and for putting this feature on top of your priority list! It is incredibly refreshing to see a developer who truly listens to the community when we talk about real-world physics. Please take your time to get through the release stress first, we will gladly wait for the update. This will be a Amazing realistic Improvment!! Thank you very much again!!
@Flocat89 Thank you for this kind message. It's quite easy to listen to the community when you're right! I've flown plenty of fuel injected IO-360's, so I'm well familiar with the three-handed technique required to start them. Implementing this in a satisfying manner that won't leave new users frustrated, won't leave advanced users disappointed, and won't leave everyone struggling with hardware controls, however, is another story.
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If the intention is to sell this aircraft for consoles (which I believe it is), then you probably also have to consider the practical aspects of using a controller. If you’re cranking the starter, is it then possible to advance the mixture simultaneously? Maybe it is, I don’t use a controller. But before complaints start to roll in, from controller users that can’t start the engine, might be worth checking out.
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If the intention is to sell this aircraft for consoles (which I believe it is), then you probably also have to consider the practical aspects of using a controller. If you’re cranking the starter, is it then possible to advance the mixture simultaneously? Maybe it is, I don’t use a controller. But before complaints start to roll in, from controller users that can’t start the engine, might be worth checking out.
@ploodovic Now you're thinking of all the things that keep me up at night
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@ploodovic Now you're thinking of all the things that keep me up at night
@Black-Square I hear the brain solves problems while we sleep. Have you tried that?
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I think the best way is to have on "realistic start" mode in tablet or the COWS DA40XLS way. in the cows you can activate (optional of course) that the starter crank when you pull the mix back from the cut postition so you can use one hand or mouse and have already the mouse on the mix lever so you are can push it in fast.
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@ploodovic Now you're thinking of all the things that keep me up at night
@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
@ploodovic Now you're thinking of all the things that keep me up at night
I was gonna ask.. have you slept at all since the release?
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@Black-Square said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
@ploodovic Now you're thinking of all the things that keep me up at night
I was gonna ask.. have you slept at all since the release?
@Esoteric A few hours of delusion sleep, apparently. I dreamt that I met Gabe Newell at a café and he gifted me an antique book in which he had written his three secrets for good game design.
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If the intention is to sell this aircraft for consoles (which I believe it is), then you probably also have to consider the practical aspects of using a controller. If you’re cranking the starter, is it then possible to advance the mixture simultaneously? Maybe it is, I don’t use a controller. But before complaints start to roll in, from controller users that can’t start the engine, might be worth checking out.
@ploodovic said in Is it maybe possible that the startup procedure is incorrect?:
If the intention is to sell this aircraft for consoles (which I believe it is), then you probably also have to consider the practical aspects of using a controller. If you’re cranking the starter, is it then possible to advance the mixture simultaneously? Maybe it is, I don’t use a controller. But before complaints start to roll in, from controller users that can’t start the engine, might be worth checking out.
Now that's an awful thought. Not being able to add realism just because it needs to work on consoles using a button controller. That would certainly keep me away from buying this aircraft
Surely there can be an optional helper coded in somewhere, selectable in the tablet for people flying with an Xbox controller. -
Food for thought: Most of these fuel-injected engines can be started using mixture-rich and mixture-ICO. (Of course you should follow the approved procedure in the checklist).
Starting from ICO is commonly approved for a flooded engine start, but can be more forgiving to use for a normal start since fuel injected engines can flood fairly easily. Mixture ICO prevents additional metered fuel from being delivered while the engine is cranking. Cranking continues to draw air through the cylinders, clearing and diluting the excess fuel (If very flooded, some may be expelled through the exhaust) until a combustible fuel-to-air ratio is reached. Starting with mixture rich should still work fine so long as you don't over prime the engine. It would be very cool to see all this modelled in the future, but as of right now I am extremely happy with the engine model improvements.
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@Flocat89 @Rimshot @ploodovic @Esoteric @jasmits @kityatyi @mburkhard @SadBucket
Hi All. I wanted to share a contemporaneous example of why it can be a difficult decision to to intercept user input as a developer. I am NOT trying to make an example of this user, but please take a look here to see today's example of the many users who struggle to bind the mixture in my turbocharged aircraft where I do exactly that.
As you see, I have done my best to address this in the FAQ, but there are often several different ways of accessing the same inputs from your hardware, and not all of them are "intercept-able". I have never had any trouble with this myself, but the number of users I see ask the same question, despite the FAQ, gives me some indication of what the results would be for all my aircraft if I adopt this feature. Like I said, it's all-or-nothing, so there is no possibility for an "enable advanced mixture control" option, for example.
However, now that my aircraft have been in the wild of a long time, and everyone seems to learn and get over any mixture control confusion, I am only now feeling confident that I could implement this feature without mass chaos.
Sorry for the long post. Since this is the issue du jour of this aircraft (each aircraft has one), I wanted to provide you a full explanation of why it can be such a difficult decision.
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@Flocat89 @Rimshot @ploodovic @Esoteric @jasmits @kityatyi @mburkhard @SadBucket
Hi All. I wanted to share a contemporaneous example of why it can be a difficult decision to to intercept user input as a developer. I am NOT trying to make an example of this user, but please take a look here to see today's example of the many users who struggle to bind the mixture in my turbocharged aircraft where I do exactly that.
As you see, I have done my best to address this in the FAQ, but there are often several different ways of accessing the same inputs from your hardware, and not all of them are "intercept-able". I have never had any trouble with this myself, but the number of users I see ask the same question, despite the FAQ, gives me some indication of what the results would be for all my aircraft if I adopt this feature. Like I said, it's all-or-nothing, so there is no possibility for an "enable advanced mixture control" option, for example.
However, now that my aircraft have been in the wild of a long time, and everyone seems to learn and get over any mixture control confusion, I am only now feeling confident that I could implement this feature without mass chaos.
Sorry for the long post. Since this is the issue du jour of this aircraft (each aircraft has one), I wanted to provide you a full explanation of why it can be such a difficult decision.
@Black-Square „Thank you for the detailed explanation, Nick! It makes total sense now, and I’m really looking forward to the update. This will be amazing!!
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Thank you @Black-Square for your post, I understand your concern and think it speaks for you that you want to provide your customers with products that are effortless to configure and use.
That example you are linking is something that is seen all over the MSFS community and I think is inevitable. Increased complexity and realism will always increase the chance of people running into issues, your products are certainly not the only ones. But what is the alternative? Keep systems arcade-ish just so that no one will ever get stuck during setup? This is of course heavily exaggerated, but I think there's no need for you to shy away from complex stuff because of people running into issues. That's what the community is here for... and your FAQ, and your manuals, and YouTube, there's so many places where people can and will get help. And in the end, when it also works for those who had encountered issues, they will enjoy the increased realism just as much.It's the nature of the game with MSFS. If you want complex stuff on an open eco-system, then sometimes it takes a bit of effort to get things going. And remember, people complaining after not reading manuals or FAQs are ALWAYS just a loud minority.
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@Black-Square Thanks for shedding some light on the complexity of the issue, I fully understand compromises had to be made. I am pleased you are feeling confident to implement more realistic startup procedures in future products, maybe even as updates to current ones that need it. Your already excellent products will get even better. Have a great weekend.
