TQ6+ and the reverse detent
-
Thanks for having a look, and no worries - I was pretty sure it's me doing something dumb so I appreciated going back to basics!
"Pardon me for starting with the basics, but how have you determined this?"
With my eyes
What I mean is when I pull my physical hardware all the way back, I can see the throttle move just back past the yellow reverser line in game. I can then grab it with the mouse and pull it all the way back, but the physical hardware itself will only ever take it to the that ~20% mark.You mentioned GENERAL ENG THROTTLE LEVER POSITION so I've extracted that for each throttle position of Full throttle, Start of the detent (so where you would expect to be bottom of idle) and full reverse/bottom of the throttle travel. I've done it for a few of your turbo props.
Caveat though - I'm using VirtualFly's software, VFHub along with the TQ6+ as that was always their suggestion - I have no info on what it does to interface with MSFS, AFAIK its a black box that "just works" - until the Caravan.
You can see the only interesting thing is that the Caravan throttle is at -25 instead of -15 when fully reversed. Which I don't think explains the issue at all.
Perhaps VFHub is setting some other simvar when it senses the lever is back in the detent - but I don't know what to look for there?
Anyway, hopefully this is useful but i suspect it's not
Edit to add: in case it's useful, the Prop lever works just fine and is consistent across all those aircraft at 100, 0, -100 for Full forward, idle detent, full backward.
-
@Black-Square - I might be sniffing around the wrong places and barking up the wrong trees here, so please tell me to shut up if that's the case!
Looking at engines.cfg for the various turbine planes I have access to, looking at "min_throttle_limit":
Bonanza Pro Turbine: min_throttle_limit = -0.15
Starship: min_throttle_limit =-0.15
Turbine Duke: min_throttle_limit = -0.15
Caravan (Cargomaster): min_throttle_limit = -1.0Did I find the
?
Or is it... a red herring?
I'll get my coat.--Edit---
I realise in retrospect that I can just make the change and try it out msyelf - It is indeed the fishy fish!Change that to min_throttle_limit = -0.15 for the Caravan and the throttle axis of the TQ6+ works again! I have full reverse range! HOORAY! There was much rejoicing
Explains why i was seeing around 20% of the reverse range (or more accurately I guess, 15%)
-
I thought that might be the case. That was the next thing I was about to write to you after your chart. The mystery is still why your hardware input acts the way it does, since that number should only be a limit, and not changing the scaling of values outside the reverse range. I planned on changing that configuration value to -1.0 for all my aircraft, since it results in much more realistic fuel control in the reverse range. I wouldn't want to mess up the throttle axis for many of my users, but I also don't really understand why yours is behaving the way that it is.
-
@Black-Square - I might be sniffing around the wrong places and barking up the wrong trees here, so please tell me to shut up if that's the case!
Looking at engines.cfg for the various turbine planes I have access to, looking at "min_throttle_limit":
Bonanza Pro Turbine: min_throttle_limit = -0.15
Starship: min_throttle_limit =-0.15
Turbine Duke: min_throttle_limit = -0.15
Caravan (Cargomaster): min_throttle_limit = -1.0Did I find the
?
Or is it... a red herring?
I'll get my coat.--Edit---
I realise in retrospect that I can just make the change and try it out msyelf - It is indeed the fishy fish!Change that to min_throttle_limit = -0.15 for the Caravan and the throttle axis of the TQ6+ works again! I have full reverse range! HOORAY! There was much rejoicing
Explains why i was seeing around 20% of the reverse range (or more accurately I guess, 15%)
-
@Jiblet
If I want to try your fix again, which engine.cfg do I need to change, all of them?@brettsan - Yep, all of them.
Or at least all the ones you want to fly - each engines.cft is for a different variant. So one for the cargomaster, one for the amphib, etc.@Black-Square - Yeah I'm not sure what VFHub is actually doing under the hood. Annoyingly its a blackbox that appears to have no documentation for that. Which for a £700/$800 unit is ... a choice.
Can I ask why your planes have that -0.15 value in the first place? It seems like a very deliberate value from what you've said there.
-
@brettsan - Yep, all of them.
Or at least all the ones you want to fly - each engines.cft is for a different variant. So one for the cargomaster, one for the amphib, etc.@Black-Square - Yeah I'm not sure what VFHub is actually doing under the hood. Annoyingly its a blackbox that appears to have no documentation for that. Which for a £700/$800 unit is ... a choice.
Can I ask why your planes have that -0.15 value in the first place? It seems like a very deliberate value from what you've said there.
@Jiblet said in TQ6+ and the reverse detent:
Can I ask why your planes have that -0.15 value in the first place? It seems like a very deliberate value from what you've said there.
Not sure, to be honest. I searched for this parameter in all of the default aircraft, and they all either have -0.15 or -0.25. In my experience, the reverse system in MSFS is one of the most antiquated, with a mixture of the new propeller simulation, and code from at least 25 years ago.
Unfortunately, it does make a substantial difference to the performance of my aircraft, so I would like to roll out this change to the entire fleet. I would hate to leave you guys editing configuration files as a solution, though.
Do you think the issue here is that Virtual Fly assumed aircraft only use this -15% number, and somehow scaled their reverse input to that?
-
@Jiblet said in TQ6+ and the reverse detent:
Can I ask why your planes have that -0.15 value in the first place? It seems like a very deliberate value from what you've said there.
Not sure, to be honest. I searched for this parameter in all of the default aircraft, and they all either have -0.15 or -0.25. In my experience, the reverse system in MSFS is one of the most antiquated, with a mixture of the new propeller simulation, and code from at least 25 years ago.
Unfortunately, it does make a substantial difference to the performance of my aircraft, so I would like to roll out this change to the entire fleet. I would hate to leave you guys editing configuration files as a solution, though.
Do you think the issue here is that Virtual Fly assumed aircraft only use this -15% number, and somehow scaled their reverse input to that?
I know another person in Virtual Fly and he used to more the "face" of the company. I will send an email to him and explain what we are trying to accomplish as best I can and see if he replies. As I said above, I was shocked by this one support experience as it was certainly not what I was used to. The only issue, it has been years since I spoke with him.
I will get back to you with my results.
-
Thanks @Black-Square I've jsut done some 6am testing on a bunch of non-Black-Square aircraft and found some "interesting" results. And by "interesting I mean "annoying".
Basically VFHub seems to just send raw values of between +100 at full forward throttle, to -25 at full reverse, with 0 at idle. And that's that. No logic, no scaling, no looking at the aircraft type or its engine values and doing anything clever.
I think they may have done something like you mentioned - looked at the values for default planes and said "yeah that'll work".
This is "ok" with a lot of aircraft - eg most of yours, the Avanti Piagio and the King Air 350, which all have it set to -15. Even then, its not perfect. It leaves the hardware throttle with about 40% of it's rearward travel left to go, because it's scaled form 0 to -25, so you hit -15 at 60% travel.
Then for some planes, like your Caravan Pro, the Kodiak, and the Twin Otter where they all have max reverse values of over -25 (if over is the right word), eg the Twotter is -34, the Kodiak -65. For those planes I just get a partial reverse because I'm maxing out at -25.
Annoying. I'll try to write a useful support ticket for Virtual Fly but I don't expect a useful answer. Perhaps the real solution would be to learn Spad.next but that UI gives me the heebyjeebies.
Thanks for all your help with this. And everyone else who had some input!
-
Thanks @Black-Square I've jsut done some 6am testing on a bunch of non-Black-Square aircraft and found some "interesting" results. And by "interesting I mean "annoying".
Basically VFHub seems to just send raw values of between +100 at full forward throttle, to -25 at full reverse, with 0 at idle. And that's that. No logic, no scaling, no looking at the aircraft type or its engine values and doing anything clever.
I think they may have done something like you mentioned - looked at the values for default planes and said "yeah that'll work".
This is "ok" with a lot of aircraft - eg most of yours, the Avanti Piagio and the King Air 350, which all have it set to -15. Even then, its not perfect. It leaves the hardware throttle with about 40% of it's rearward travel left to go, because it's scaled form 0 to -25, so you hit -15 at 60% travel.
Then for some planes, like your Caravan Pro, the Kodiak, and the Twin Otter where they all have max reverse values of over -25 (if over is the right word), eg the Twotter is -34, the Kodiak -65. For those planes I just get a partial reverse because I'm maxing out at -25.
Annoying. I'll try to write a useful support ticket for Virtual Fly but I don't expect a useful answer. Perhaps the real solution would be to learn Spad.next but that UI gives me the heebyjeebies.
Thanks for all your help with this. And everyone else who had some input!
Thanks for your earlier reply about changing the engine.cfg... going to give that a go...
I tried support previously but didn't get anyway... likely because I probably didn't explain the issue well enough. I have since sent another email to someone else in the company that I worked with previously to see if he would be willing to help. His email didn't bounce, so I hope that means he still works with the company.
"Yes, I saw your email above.... but thought I would send anyway to confirm... can't hurt right?"
-
I know another person in Virtual Fly and he used to more the "face" of the company. I will send an email to him and explain what we are trying to accomplish as best I can and see if he replies. As I said above, I was shocked by this one support experience as it was certainly not what I was used to. The only issue, it has been years since I spoke with him.
I will get back to you with my results.
-
Thanks for your earlier reply about changing the engine.cfg... going to give that a go...
I tried support previously but didn't get anyway... likely because I probably didn't explain the issue well enough. I have since sent another email to someone else in the company that I worked with previously to see if he would be willing to help. His email didn't bounce, so I hope that means he still works with the company.
"Yes, I saw your email above.... but thought I would send anyway to confirm... can't hurt right?"
@brettsan I'd suggest going for -0.25 on the min_throttle_limit
I've not actually tested that on the Caravan yet, but it should mean that the reverse section of your TQ6+ behaves perfectly (full travel with no deadzone at the end). And hey it gets you a tiny bit closer to the -1.0 Nick wants to get to
