The Black Square fleet-wide ILS tracking issue continues
-
Hello,
Sadly, it would appear the Caravan retained the ILS tacking issue that plagues most Black Square aircraft in MSFS 2024, when using either the KLN90B GPS unit or the KNS-81 RNAV suite. My experience suggests the ILS tracking issue does not occur when using either the GNS suite or the PMS units. I have not tested with other avionics.
The issue is the same as with other Black Square aircraft. The autopilot fails to capture the localizer and continues in HDG mode. It does not help to disengage the autopilot and then re-engage. I found no workaround to have the autopilot capture the ILS when using the aforementioned avionics.
It is somewhat disappointing that this issue still exists. What is the point of throwing in all these units as "options" when they don't work?
Clearly, it's something that Nick needs to resolve - the KLN90B works as a charm elsewhere, and the KNS-81 is a Black Square-developed suite. I hope this bug will finally be resolved.
-
@kityatyi What other planes make space for the KLN90B? I might have to take a look at them.
-
Thanks! Somehow I hadn't noticed it was an option in the Aerostar. Time for some more fun.
-
My C208 KAP140 sometimes just completely ignores the ILS too. I'm starting to think it's a issue with my peripherals.
What's your setup? Do you use any external radio/autopilot hardware? I use a fairly niche thing called a Class Echo, interfacing with SPAD.next, to control various systems, radio, autopilot, etc. I haven't tested enough to figure out what's actually going on, but because I've just imported and adapted a generic aircraft profile for the C208 that mostly uses default sim bindings and not the LVARs in the manual, I'm suspicious there's an issue there. The next time I have time to sit down and troubleshoot I'll be making sure to see that my setup only uses LVARs specified in the manual, and see if that helps.
When I just fire up the sim without this hardware, I'm usually not able to recreate any issues. Swapping between TDS GTN 750 nav and VLOC from both the unit and the main panel buttons seems to work as expected.
FWIW, the LOC tracking isn't working too well regardless, often happily settling 2-4 degrees off the LOC, but I've not flown a lot of ILSes in this thing yet so I don't have a good data set.
-
Hello! I don't use anything like that. All I have is the Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS stick/throttle combo and a cheap Thrustmaster pedal.
I doubt anything's "wrong" with your peripherals. The "stock" GNS systems work flawlessly.
What I suspect (without any basis to state it, only guessing) to be the problem is that Nick somehow managed to solve the issue of the RNAV system not being able to drive the autopilot. Back in the MSFS 2020 days, this ILS tracking issue didn't exist, at least I didn't experience it. Since the RNAV system of Black Square aircraft is now capable of working with the autopilot, the problem appeared. At least, that is what I suspect. But I may be perfectly wrong. It just makes sense to me that while Nick managed to somehow workaround whatever prohibited the RNAV system from coupling to the autopilot, the solution to one problem might have caused a different problem.
Whatever is causing the problem, I hope Nick can find a solution.
-
I did a bunch of flying yesterday in the Baron, Bonanza, and Caravan, and tested this in all three. I'm still having a similar issue: I was able to capture localizer but NOT glideslope after using the RNAV units -- the autopilot stayed in appr mode, and glideslope indicator appeared, but I flew right through it at the final approach fix in each test. In my final test, I tried recycling appr mode and it didn't help. I got the same behavior whether I used the appr mode on the RNAV units, or the KAP 140.
I do use Axis and Ohs for control binding, so sometime this week I'll test with default sim bindings (although I don't look forward to setting them up!). For today.. just gonna fly for fun.
I have yet to test with the KLN-90B.
-
I wonder if this is related to my post below. The topic is slightly misnamed, as it's VOR tracking using any avionics. The key seems to be the use of third-party control mappers such as Spad.Next or FSUIPC. I honestly haven't done any further testing for a while.
https://community.justflight.com/topic/10383/nav-mode-keeps-changing-to-rol-with-non-gps-avionics
-
Never used anything like these and still have the issue, 100% of the time.
I am not going to buy another BS aircraft until this is addressed. Very frustrating and affects all MSFS 2024 BS aircraft.
@kityatyi Oh, I'm surprised to see that I never responded to this. I've seen sporadic reports of ILS capture issues since the release of MSFS 2020. The difference you're finding between the avionics is to be expected, as some (WT GNS 530) employ their own completely custom autopilot, while the others use the native autopilot. I have seen the occasional missed glideslope since MSFS 2020, but I have found that engaging approach mode at the point of glideslope intercept has a 100% success rate.
@SteveKane That was my first thought too, since it's very clear that something became bugged in the native autopilot at some point with MSFS 2024. As others have demonstrated, this is a local phenomenon caused by 3rd party software, so the solution will have to come from Asobo.
As for this localizer intercept issue, I have never seen it myself, but I don't doubt that it could be another bug introduced into the native autopilot. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing I could change as a developer that would affect localizer capture, other than maybe the PID constants, which seem to work well in all my aircraft for all other autopilot modes. The outlier here would be the KLN-90B (which uses the native autopilot) working in another aircraft, which has not implemented its own overriding autopilot (which may be the case in the Comanche and Aerostar). If you could provide an example of that, or even just a video of what you're seeing on your end, that might be helpful for troubleshooting.
@RPGamerous Just one more quick clarification: The approach mode on the KNS only affects the CDI scaling, so it will have no effect on autopilot operation.
-
Thank you for your reply, Nick.
I never witnessed THIS kind of missed intercept in MSFS 2020 whatsoever (BlackSquare and other aircraft included). But it is very consistent in 2024.
The localizer capture issue - and I can only speak for myself - only occurs with BlackSquare aircraft and only when I am using either the KLN90B or the RNAV system. These successfully track the GPS or VOR, but then fail to capture the ILS. For me, this is not an occasional experience. This happens 100% of the time, regardless of the BlackSquare aircraft type. But when I am using the GNS system or the PMS GTN option, everything is fine, the ILS is nicely captured.
Interestingly, however, the KLN90 works without a single missed intercept in my A2A aircraft. In other words, I only experience the missed intercept in my BlackSquare fleet.
So, my conclusion - however premature it may be - is that there is something, somewhere that causes BOTH your very own RNAV system as well as the 3rd party KLN90, to somehow cause the localizer and glideslope not to capture. If I am in HDG mode to intercept the localizer, the aircraft would just continue on the heading, letting the needle travel across the instrument, etc.
Again, I can successfully use the RNAV computer, use pseudo VORs, all works as a charm, but when it comes to the ILS approach, the aircraft simply "ignores" it and continues flying straight, instead of capturing the needle. And this happens 100% of the time, not just once in a while.
-
Thank you for your reply, Nick.
I never witnessed THIS kind of missed intercept in MSFS 2020 whatsoever (BlackSquare and other aircraft included). But it is very consistent in 2024.
The localizer capture issue - and I can only speak for myself - only occurs with BlackSquare aircraft and only when I am using either the KLN90B or the RNAV system. These successfully track the GPS or VOR, but then fail to capture the ILS. For me, this is not an occasional experience. This happens 100% of the time, regardless of the BlackSquare aircraft type. But when I am using the GNS system or the PMS GTN option, everything is fine, the ILS is nicely captured.
Interestingly, however, the KLN90 works without a single missed intercept in my A2A aircraft. In other words, I only experience the missed intercept in my BlackSquare fleet.
So, my conclusion - however premature it may be - is that there is something, somewhere that causes BOTH your very own RNAV system as well as the 3rd party KLN90, to somehow cause the localizer and glideslope not to capture. If I am in HDG mode to intercept the localizer, the aircraft would just continue on the heading, letting the needle travel across the instrument, etc.
Again, I can successfully use the RNAV computer, use pseudo VORs, all works as a charm, but when it comes to the ILS approach, the aircraft simply "ignores" it and continues flying straight, instead of capturing the needle. And this happens 100% of the time, not just once in a while.
@kityatyi What I was trying to explain above is that the PMS50 GTN, and WT GNS both have their own autopilot, which manages localizer intercept internally. My KNS, the KLN, and any avionics configuration with no navigation computer at all, all use the native autopilot. In fact, I do exactly nothing with regards to ILS capture in those scenarios. It's 100% at the mercy of the simulator's native autopilot. Don't quote me with regards to other developers' aircraft, but I believe the Comanche has its own autopilot, which overrides the native one when the KLN is in use.
If anyone else in this thread could confirm that this happens every single time for them, that might be helpful, since I'm not seeing that myself. Videos are always helpful too, since I sometimes see subtle, seemingly unrelated things in videos that ultimately lead us to a solution.
Additionally, I would be interested to know if you could reproduce this in some default aircraft that is NOT equipped with any GPS system, so just with navigation radios. If so, then it would mean that it's almost certainly a simulator bug. If not, then it gives me a potential avenue to explore.
-
I get it. I can't confirm or deny how the A2A autopilot works, but that would explain why the KLN works in their fleet but not in yours.
I will try to record a video and upload it so I can share it with you. I am planning to take the Caravan for a spin later this evening and then use the KLN to fly an ILS approach somewhere.
As for default aircraft, I can confirm I did not - so far - experience any intercept issues in the Working Title Cirrus SR22T and the Grumman Albatross - these are the only two default aircraft I ever touched (!) from the stock lineup. But I will re-test them to see if I can reproduce the issue in one of them.
-
I get it. I can't confirm or deny how the A2A autopilot works, but that would explain why the KLN works in their fleet but not in yours.
I will try to record a video and upload it so I can share it with you. I am planning to take the Caravan for a spin later this evening and then use the KLN to fly an ILS approach somewhere.
As for default aircraft, I can confirm I did not - so far - experience any intercept issues in the Working Title Cirrus SR22T and the Grumman Albatross - these are the only two default aircraft I ever touched (!) from the stock lineup. But I will re-test them to see if I can reproduce the issue in one of them.
@kityatyi said in The Black Square fleet-wide ILS tracking issue continues:
Working Title Cirrus SR22T and the Grumman Albatross
Just in case it saves you some time, if both of those aircraft use the WT G1000, then I would expect them not to exhibit the issue, as they have the same WT autopilot as the GNS 530. To obtain useful information from the default aircraft, it would have to be from one without any avionics besides nav/com radios.
-
@kityatyi said in The Black Square fleet-wide ILS tracking issue continues:
Working Title Cirrus SR22T and the Grumman Albatross
Just in case it saves you some time, if both of those aircraft use the WT G1000, then I would expect them not to exhibit the issue, as they have the same WT autopilot as the GNS 530. To obtain useful information from the default aircraft, it would have to be from one without any avionics besides nav/com radios.
The Albatross has several variants, a G1000, an analog, and now a G3X variant.
-
Having Lots of ILS / LOC & RNAV Problems in msfs2024, with ALL BKSQ PRO Aircraft and the TBM-850. (NON GPS - ONLY KX155 and the KN-80/81 activated)
Also I noticed after spending many hours, that the system performance of the units change if i Use the KNS Units for something, and then try to do an ILS with either installed unit. Totally un-reliable for now. I Will also try these aircraft in msfs2020 to see if its the same there.
For me the Avionics and that they function correctly is very primary, and I have no doubt Nick & Team will fix these issues if possible.
-
Having Lots of ILS / LOC & RNAV Problems in msfs2024, with ALL BKSQ PRO Aircraft and the TBM-850. (NON GPS - ONLY KX155 and the KN-80/81 activated)
Also I noticed after spending many hours, that the system performance of the units change if i Use the KNS Units for something, and then try to do an ILS with either installed unit. Totally un-reliable for now. I Will also try these aircraft in msfs2020 to see if its the same there.
For me the Avionics and that they function correctly is very primary, and I have no doubt Nick & Team will fix these issues if possible.
@ErnieBall So sorry to hear that some of you are still dealing with this. I was currently under the impression that this was endemic to many/all aircraft in MSFS 2024, and something for Asobo to fix. I have never experienced this myself, and from the frequency of reports, I think not everyone experiences this. Did you see the above mention of FSUIPC and 3rd programs that poll the state of the simulator?
If you want to add your voice to things on the Asobo end, here is the most recently updated official forum topic on the subject. I can make a topic in our developer support forum about this too.
-
Thank You Sir for your reply
The stuff I experience might as well be on my end, but as I saw the others above and other places, I thought i would just give notice.I DO Have FCUIPC Running, and i can disable it as I dont useit for other that some "Heads up " Utility- Can do without if that helps.
I Also SPAD, and i can test to disable that as well!
But that one is hard to live without haha.I can also tell now after testing, that the BKSQ Analog Versions in MSFS2020 work as they should i believe.
Thats also great as I can have my IMC Approach "Fix" in that sim when needed haha.I WIll check out and se If I can add something to that ASOBO forum.
-
BKSQ AP Issues.
Example - Bonanza Pro - Flying a short route as follows:Airport to a VOR using AP in HDG then NAV mode using KX155. Having previously set up the KNS-81 to use the same VOR as ref, I made an "Offset" WP1 from that, so after passing the VOR I Use the KNS-81 & RNAV mode to nav to WP1. I switch over HSI Source to RNAV, AND also Press the NAV/GPS Button to set AP to follow RNAV. I Then line up the AC towards WP1 with HDG Mode, and then Activate NAV mode on the AP, and it steers correctly towards WP1, also showing "DME Data" in the DME Display that has been set to show RNAV. - Perfect!
At WP1 I switch to HDG mode and turn towards the ILS (Set in KX155 NAV1) Feathers at a 30 Deg Angle and some miles out from where feathers start. Making sure HSI Source is now set to "NAV 1" & NAV/GPS mode to NAV, i activate APR Mode on the AP and get the correct AP Mode Annunciators APR & GS, and HSI indicates the Needle /CDI correctly. - . So Far So Good...
Entering LOC Center line the Needle starts moving but nothing happens, the AP does not capture the LOC at all, and I have tried lots of sets of Approaches and trying different things to get it to capture.
Finally I found, that If I immediatly after seeing the LOC Needle starts to move Press NAV/GPS mode to RNAV and then again back to NAV, Then the AP will capture the LOC/ILS correctly and the full ILS Phaze works as expected.
It seems that If I DO NOT use the KNS-80/81 during a Flight, The LOC/ILS Works as it should, and If I have used it, I must Restart the flight from the World map to "Reset" the AP system.
One more note only: When the AP does capture it almost always "aims" the AC towards the Rwy threshold and reaches LOC "center line" very late in my opinion
Hope this helps to find the "Bug"
-
Now I can also confirm the above posting on specifically the Bonanza Pro, it also goes for the TBM850 as well in reg to the Capture problems as well as the procedure to activate a working Approach - but here with the HSI NAV Selector button on the HSI. However there are some other quirks ..
-
After using the KNS and switching over to HDG mode on the AP, The HDG bug has a hard time centering up after changing course. It sits a little offset to Center. If the NAV selection for the HSI is back on for example LOC-1, the the bug is OK again.
-
LOC/ILS Does not work from the KNS in Any MODE Selections on the KNS! (Probably when the problem is active)
I do not get these problems in MSFS2020 Using the ANALOGs! - Have not tried the "PROs" there yet..!
I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY IF JUST SOMEONE HAVING THESE ISSUES COULD CONFIRM THE ABOVE PROCEDURE!
Thanks All!
-
