Starship navigation database
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I'm sorry, all I know about flying and navigation comes from flight simming, so my terminology is way off. And english isn't my first language, that complicates things. After some help of a well known search engine I think I'm beginning to understand where I went wrong. I dismissed intersections, which was wrong because it is the thing I meant when saying RNAV waypoints. So in my new and more profound understanding, the folowing flight plan is possible to build in the FMS? (the original flight plan is a bit more complex, just used the beginning and endpoints of airways): LIRJ MAREL LUMAV ALBET BRENO BRENO3A LOWI
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RNAV waypoints are the same as any 5 letter waypoint. The only reason they are referred to as RNAV is because they follow an RNAV airway or RNAV SID/STAR or IAP. If the waypoint is valid for an AIRAC, then the FMS will interact with it. If Simbrief spits out a route, then the Starship will be programmable for navigation. Waypoints are nothing more than GPS coordinates invisible in space that the plane can navigate to, whereas VORs and NDBs are beacons on the ground the aircraft track via radio signal.
In your example: LIRJ MAREL LUMAV ALBET BRENO BRENO3A LOWI, those are all valid waypoints that can be entered into the FMS. The only difference is the BRENO3A STAR might require you enter the waypoints manually. Similar to the GNS, SIDs and STARs are not available to my knowledge, just approaches. I assume it's the same here.
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This is all correct. SIDS and STARS will be a manual affair. However, if you encounter a waypoint that is not in the database, you can always create a user defined waypoint for yourself, which will be saved for your future flights. This is only mentioned briefly in the manual, so I might as well mention it here too for Google.
If you wish to create a user waypoint, simply enter the name of a waypoint identifier that doesn't exist. The FMS will prompt you to create a user waypoint with longitude and latitude coordinates. You can then reference this waypoint by the name you gave it anywhere in the FMS. If you want to delete user waypoints, or see all the ones you've created, select the "Inspect Waypoints" page from the Index screen of the CDU.
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This is all correct. SIDS and STARS will be a manual affair. However, if you encounter a waypoint that is not in the database, you can always create a user defined waypoint for yourself, which will be saved for your future flights. This is only mentioned briefly in the manual, so I might as well mention it here too for Google.
If you wish to create a user waypoint, simply enter the name of a waypoint identifier that doesn't exist. The FMS will prompt you to create a user waypoint with longitude and latitude coordinates. You can then reference this waypoint by the name you gave it anywhere in the FMS. If you want to delete user waypoints, or see all the ones you've created, select the "Inspect Waypoints" page from the Index screen of the CDU.
@Black-Square So I'm understanding that there is no Navigraph integration? Where does the "built in" navigation data come from? Does it always use the WT GNS database, even if the GNS is not in use?
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No Navigraph integration currently. The internal database actually has nothing to do with Working Title or the GNS. I just mentioned WT to make clear that it's the same database that all other high quality avionics use, and not something homebrew that I made myself.
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MSFS has it's own internal database. This is why, upon a new AIRAC update, we get "Download Update" to MSFS 2020. 2024 does this in the background. 2024 has its own flight planner utility that allows you to build and create flight plans. It isn't very good, or rather it's clunky, but you can select STARs, SIDs, and IAPs in the MSFS flight planner/tablet and export them to the GPS and ATC.
Previous editions of MSFS (FS2000, FS2004, FS9, et cetera) also contained their own internal navigation data that allowed ATC/GPS to use for approaches, but they were frozen in time. Some third parties created upgraded NavData for FS9 and FSX, but it was only an updated BGL and not perfect.
MSFS2020 and 2024 have an upgraded internal navigation database that can be accessed by developers for third part aircraft. In reality, you no longer need Navigraph for NavData in the sim, but a few developers rely on it for their add-ons.
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Yes, I suppose I worded that clunky. I believe, per JF when they were developing the 146, it was very hard for non-stock or aircraft that weren't using stock avionics to access the sim navigation database; hence why the CJ4-mod FMS uses the sim database but the UNS-1 does not. So it seems the Starship will use the sim navigation data, how it exactly gets it isn't important.
Very curious to know what the floppy drive does in the Starship, then, unless it's just a fidgety click spot because we can.
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Yes, I suppose I worded that clunky. I believe, per JF when they were developing the 146, it was very hard for non-stock or aircraft that weren't using stock avionics to access the sim navigation database; hence why the CJ4-mod FMS uses the sim database but the UNS-1 does not. So it seems the Starship will use the sim navigation data, how it exactly gets it isn't important.
Very curious to know what the floppy drive does in the Starship, then, unless it's just a fidgety click spot because we can.
@jmarkows Found in the manual.
"When the CDU is powered on, it will display
a self-test screen. If the on-side FMS, Flight Control Compute (FCC), and CDU tests pass, the
user will be prompted to initialize the system. If the database is up to date, the user can
proceed to the Index screen. Otherwise, the user can elect to use the outdated database (with
no effect on the simulation), or follow prompts to update the database via the Data Base Unit
(DBU) floppy drive."So it is just a little extra fun layer to emulate how you had to update the databases on the system.
Further specifically on the floppy drive it says:
"This avionics system has the ability to read and
write data to/from a 3.5 inch floppy diskette. The
floppy disk reader is located in one of the baggage
shelves behind the copilot’s seat, near the floor of
the cabin. Click on a floppy disk to select it, and
click the floppy again to insert it into the floppy drive.
To eject the floppy, click on the latching lever over
the slot. Once a floppy is inserted, it can be read
via the “READ/WRITE DISKETTE” screen,
accessible via the Control Display Unit’s (CDU)
index page. When read or write operations are
occurring, the floppy drive’s activity light will flash.
Approximately five weeks after you first install the
aircraft, the CDU will warn of an outdated navigation
database during initialization. This message can be
ignored by pressing the line select key for “USE
EXPIRED DATA BASE” without any ill effects. The
database can be updated by following the menu
prompts on the “UPDATE DATA BASE” screen by
inserting the navigation data floppy disk and
performing the diskette read operation." -
I'm still not entirely sure what exactly changes when switching to the GNS430. The AMS-850 can't draw curved lines, including holds, but does that change with the GNS? Or will it still not display them, just fly them correctly on autopilot?
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My understanding is, that the job of the GNS430 is to be a second option for being the source for the autopilot. So if you want to fly something the original system can't do - you can chose to use the 430 to navigate by.
So as mentioned in the latest video, it will not really mess with what the AMS-850 can do/display or touch your current flightplan. You have it behaving basically externally to the rest of the system but driving the autopilot, as it was only later retrofitted on the aircraft.https://youtu.be/ggVvze67_ME?si=R7Q-tvfUyO68eFp7&t=409
You can also use GNSS as a source of position information so you don't have to rely on the many radio sources providing you with an accurate location for the AMS-850, but that is a bit of a different nuance.
For the purists out there who want a more classic experience, I would suggest that Nick could perhaps "upgrade" the Starship to have the 430 toggleable in the tablet, just like in previous planes?
With its location, it is of course not super intrusive, but it will still be in the back of the mind that if you glance down you can "cheat" and get your position. So if it is relatively simple to integrate an option for the 430 not being installed with some later update, it would be the icing on the cake. -
You are correct on my intended purpose. Unfortunately, the number of people asking for various advanced navigation features and even more modern GPS units makes me wonder if I made the correct decision by including it. My only correction is that the GNS does not actually supply the GPS position information for the FMS. That comes from an LRU in the nose avionics bay, which can be monitored via the "LRN Status" screen on the CDU.
I have seen the requests asking to hide the GNS altogether (if you don't initialize it, you can't cheat from the initialization screen), and I will consider how to quickly accomplish this before the aircraft is released.
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It's certainly a valid config from the looks of this....https://youtu.be/PNLXEMLemZ8?si=LeTboJ6PEHqXX8d0&t=338
But configuration choices are always nice to have, one for SP1 thought rather than a release delay? ;-) -
You are correct on my intended purpose. Unfortunately, the number of people asking for various advanced navigation features and even more modern GPS units makes me wonder if I made the correct decision by including it. My only correction is that the GNS does not actually supply the GPS position information for the FMS. That comes from an LRU in the nose avionics bay, which can be monitored via the "LRN Status" screen on the CDU.
I have seen the requests asking to hide the GNS altogether (if you don't initialize it, you can't cheat from the initialization screen), and I will consider how to quickly accomplish this before the aircraft is released.
@Black-Square Impressive response if you get it changed to a toggle for the release this month. I was just imagining it being added in a patch post release.
And yeah, good clarification that the GNSS position option for the integrated system is indeed not related to the GNS430 - my wording was a bit clunky.
People will always have preferences going in different directions. The funky unique systems of the Starship will require learning new and different ways to do things.
For some this will be solid gold and a fantastic experience. Endless hours will be spent playing around with the depths of the systems.
Others prefer more to "just" fly from A to B and get everything set up as easily as they can while flying another new airplane. For these, the unique avionics might detract, while for the others it is the major selling point of this airplane.
So honestly the Starship might not be the ideal plane from a pure time spent vs. money earned perspective (some of the pretty basic fighter jets on the Marketplace might dominate such a ranking), but I certainly hope you are rewarded with great sale numbers, and have seen many people impressed by the preview videos so far.
I believe the core audience for your products is all about the depth and feel the passion poured into the development. They will love spending hours exploring all the unique features of this magnificent plane.Still, I also think it is important to have the 430 as an option for when you do not want to be an extra challenge for busy Vatsim controllers, needing special treatment.
"Pilots shall not fly an RNAV 1 or RNAV 2 SID or STAR unless it can be retrieved from the on-board navigation database using the procedure name and is consistent with the procedure in the chart."
As basically every SID/STAR on this side of the pond is moving to RNAV 1 and the onboard system only has approaches and not SID/STARs selectable (AFAIK), I feel this is the situations where the 430 might become handy.
(Same challenge when flying with the KLN 90B, where the dev has included an option to show the P-RNAV procedures the real unit lacks.)The eventual videos showing full flights step by step will hopefully convince some of the people on the fence that they can make due without a touchscreen Garmin. One of the 750 devs also has a toolbar option that might be fit for some users (if it works with the starship - not entirely sure how universal it is?).
Can't wait for more videos and to get my hands on this beauty.
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In the Flight Planning video, it's mentioned that one of the Starship owners said the GNS upgrade like has been put into the BS one is possible and he's considering it. Does that mean that it does not currently exist as such? Do the remaining ones navigate entirely with their stock onboard navigation and don't currently use something like a 430 integrated onboard?
If so, I'd also like the option to take it out, but I'm ok with that coming post launch.
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In the Flight Planning video, it's mentioned that one of the Starship owners said the GNS upgrade like has been put into the BS one is possible and he's considering it. Does that mean that it does not currently exist as such? Do the remaining ones navigate entirely with their stock onboard navigation and don't currently use something like a 430 integrated onboard?
If so, I'd also like the option to take it out, but I'm ok with that coming post launch.
@jmarkows As linked above, one of the Starships does have a GNS in that exact location. None of them use the GNS for position information. That is supplied by a line-replaceable unit (LRU) in the nose avionics bay. The upgrade that I discussed with one of the owners would be exactly (or very similar) to what I have implemented here. The GNS would drive the autopilot via the CDI and GSI, as it does in less unique aircraft. This is what you are all familiar with in aircraft like the Dukes. The GNS outputs a signal to drive the CDI, and then the autopilot uses the CDI deflection to fly the desired course.
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I see, I hadn't seen the video posted above, only the comment in your video. So the one(s) with the GNS have it on board, but it's not currently hooked in, even in the way you're modeling? Just a curiosity at this point.
Also, do they update the nav data IRL with that floppy drive? I suppose it could be, but I'm wondering if all that waypoint data, even without named procedures, amounts to less than 1.1MB!
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You are correct, as to the real world installation.
Yes, the database are all still built for and loaded on floppies! I handled them myself. I've seen a few comments asking that I remove the floppy drive, because it's not "realistic anymore". I can confirm that all of the real Starship owners are still reading and writing floppy disks in 2025!
