Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • Users
Collapse
Just Flight Community Forum
  1. Home
  2. Just Flight
  3. MSFS Products
  4. Black Square Add-Ons
  5. Starship navigation database

Starship navigation database

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Black Square Add-Ons
34 Posts 12 Posters 5.9k Views 2 Watching
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • RandolfR Offline
    RandolfR Offline
    Randolf
    wrote on last edited by
    #4

    Ah, finally I can dust off that floppy drive I have stashed away somewhere. Knew it will become useful one day. 😆

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • S Offline
      S Offline
      StefanL85
      wrote on last edited by
      #5

      As I understand the manual, without the GNS430 fitted the Starships own FMS is only capable of using VORs, NDBs, DMEs and Airports to build a flight plan. It doesn't use RNAV waypoints or airways. This will be interesting to use and to plan with Simbrief.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • Black SquareB Offline
        Black SquareB Offline
        Black Square
        Black Square Developer
        wrote on last edited by
        #6

        Unless I have a typo in the manual (please tell me if I do!), that should be VOR's, NDB's, Airports, and Intersections. Standard RNAV approaches can be loaded from the approach database, along with all their terminal intersections. For the purposes of most GA flying, Starship's navigation system should be quite adequate.

        To give a sense of what you will be faced with, the system's biggest limitation is lack of any curved legs. This includes holds, procedure turns, and modern RNP RNAV legs (like radius-to-fix). Unless you need to fly to the lowest possible minimums in the Swiss Alps, this last one will likely not be a factor. Holds and procedure turns, on the other hand, will have to be executed manually. The waypoints will still be displayed on the map, but with only straight lines connecting them.

        1 Reply Last reply
        1
        • D Offline
          D Offline
          Dingle
          wrote on last edited by
          #7

          Thanks for that answer. Still I do not really understand if I will be able to fly via a Simbrief generated route with the Starship and whether or not the FMS needs AIRAC updates via Navigraph.

          The GNS430 will be an optional feature, right? Is that an addition to the native Starship FMS or a replacement.

          Or do I get it completely wrong 🙂

          Cheers

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • Black SquareB Offline
            Black SquareB Offline
            Black Square
            Black Square Developer
            wrote on last edited by
            #8

            I'm not an expert on Simbrief, but a route is a route. So long as you're not relying on named airways (you could always just enter the fixes that define this airway) you should be able to enter any route you want.

            No navigation data updates are required. Starship uses the same internal database as all the Working Title avionics.

            The GNS 430 lives in the pedestal, far out of ordinary sight while flying, just as it does in the real Starship that my cockpit was modeled from. The only thing the GNS is there for is to take control of the autopilot and primary navigation instrumentation (CDI) to make flying complex procedures more manageable without hand flying.

            1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • D Offline
              D Offline
              Dingle
              wrote on last edited by
              #9

              That sounds like a great combination. Really looking forward to that aircraft. Thanks for taking the time to write these through answers.

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • S Offline
                S Offline
                StefanL85
                wrote on last edited by
                #10

                I'm sorry, all I know about flying and navigation comes from flight simming, so my terminology is way off. And english isn't my first language, that complicates things. After some help of a well known search engine I think I'm beginning to understand where I went wrong. I dismissed intersections, which was wrong because it is the thing I meant when saying RNAV waypoints. So in my new and more profound understanding, the folowing flight plan is possible to build in the FMS? (the original flight plan is a bit more complex, just used the beginning and endpoints of airways): LIRJ MAREL LUMAV ALBET BRENO BRENO3A LOWI

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • OrlaamO Offline
                  OrlaamO Offline
                  Orlaam
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #11

                  RNAV waypoints are the same as any 5 letter waypoint. The only reason they are referred to as RNAV is because they follow an RNAV airway or RNAV SID/STAR or IAP. If the waypoint is valid for an AIRAC, then the FMS will interact with it. If Simbrief spits out a route, then the Starship will be programmable for navigation. Waypoints are nothing more than GPS coordinates invisible in space that the plane can navigate to, whereas VORs and NDBs are beacons on the ground the aircraft track via radio signal.

                  In your example: LIRJ MAREL LUMAV ALBET BRENO BRENO3A LOWI, those are all valid waypoints that can be entered into the FMS. The only difference is the BRENO3A STAR might require you enter the waypoints manually. Similar to the GNS, SIDs and STARs are not available to my knowledge, just approaches. I assume it's the same here.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • Black SquareB Offline
                    Black SquareB Offline
                    Black Square
                    Black Square Developer
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #12

                    This is all correct. SIDS and STARS will be a manual affair. However, if you encounter a waypoint that is not in the database, you can always create a user defined waypoint for yourself, which will be saved for your future flights. This is only mentioned briefly in the manual, so I might as well mention it here too for Google.

                    If you wish to create a user waypoint, simply enter the name of a waypoint identifier that doesn't exist. The FMS will prompt you to create a user waypoint with longitude and latitude coordinates. You can then reference this waypoint by the name you gave it anywhere in the FMS. If you want to delete user waypoints, or see all the ones you've created, select the "Inspect Waypoints" page from the Index screen of the CDU.

                    J 1 Reply Last reply
                    3
                    • S Offline
                      S Offline
                      StefanL85
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #13

                      Thank you for the explanation!

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • Black SquareB Black Square

                        This is all correct. SIDS and STARS will be a manual affair. However, if you encounter a waypoint that is not in the database, you can always create a user defined waypoint for yourself, which will be saved for your future flights. This is only mentioned briefly in the manual, so I might as well mention it here too for Google.

                        If you wish to create a user waypoint, simply enter the name of a waypoint identifier that doesn't exist. The FMS will prompt you to create a user waypoint with longitude and latitude coordinates. You can then reference this waypoint by the name you gave it anywhere in the FMS. If you want to delete user waypoints, or see all the ones you've created, select the "Inspect Waypoints" page from the Index screen of the CDU.

                        J Online
                        J Online
                        jmarkows
                        wrote on last edited by jmarkows
                        #14

                        @Black-Square So I'm understanding that there is no Navigraph integration? Where does the "built in" navigation data come from? Does it always use the WT GNS database, even if the GNS is not in use?

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • Black SquareB Offline
                          Black SquareB Offline
                          Black Square
                          Black Square Developer
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #15

                          No Navigraph integration currently. The internal database actually has nothing to do with Working Title or the GNS. I just mentioned WT to make clear that it's the same database that all other high quality avionics use, and not something homebrew that I made myself.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          1
                          • OrlaamO Offline
                            OrlaamO Offline
                            Orlaam
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #16

                            MSFS has it's own internal database. This is why, upon a new AIRAC update, we get "Download Update" to MSFS 2020. 2024 does this in the background. 2024 has its own flight planner utility that allows you to build and create flight plans. It isn't very good, or rather it's clunky, but you can select STARs, SIDs, and IAPs in the MSFS flight planner/tablet and export them to the GPS and ATC.

                            Previous editions of MSFS (FS2000, FS2004, FS9, et cetera) also contained their own internal navigation data that allowed ATC/GPS to use for approaches, but they were frozen in time. Some third parties created upgraded NavData for FS9 and FSX, but it was only an updated BGL and not perfect.

                            MSFS2020 and 2024 have an upgraded internal navigation database that can be accessed by developers for third part aircraft. In reality, you no longer need Navigraph for NavData in the sim, but a few developers rely on it for their add-ons.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • J Online
                              J Online
                              jmarkows
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #17

                              Yes, I suppose I worded that clunky. I believe, per JF when they were developing the 146, it was very hard for non-stock or aircraft that weren't using stock avionics to access the sim navigation database; hence why the CJ4-mod FMS uses the sim database but the UNS-1 does not. So it seems the Starship will use the sim navigation data, how it exactly gets it isn't important.

                              Very curious to know what the floppy drive does in the Starship, then, unless it's just a fidgety click spot because we can.

                              A 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • J jmarkows

                                Yes, I suppose I worded that clunky. I believe, per JF when they were developing the 146, it was very hard for non-stock or aircraft that weren't using stock avionics to access the sim navigation database; hence why the CJ4-mod FMS uses the sim database but the UNS-1 does not. So it seems the Starship will use the sim navigation data, how it exactly gets it isn't important.

                                Very curious to know what the floppy drive does in the Starship, then, unless it's just a fidgety click spot because we can.

                                A Online
                                A Online
                                Avionic
                                wrote on last edited by Avionic
                                #18

                                @jmarkows Found in the manual.

                                "When the CDU is powered on, it will display
                                a self-test screen. If the on-side FMS, Flight Control Compute (FCC), and CDU tests pass, the
                                user will be prompted to initialize the system. If the database is up to date, the user can
                                proceed to the Index screen. Otherwise, the user can elect to use the outdated database (with
                                no effect on the simulation), or follow prompts to update the database via the Data Base Unit
                                (DBU) floppy drive."

                                So it is just a little extra fun layer to emulate how you had to update the databases on the system.

                                Further specifically on the floppy drive it says:
                                "This avionics system has the ability to read and
                                write data to/from a 3.5 inch floppy diskette. The
                                floppy disk reader is located in one of the baggage
                                shelves behind the copilot’s seat, near the floor of
                                the cabin. Click on a floppy disk to select it, and
                                click the floppy again to insert it into the floppy drive.
                                To eject the floppy, click on the latching lever over
                                the slot. Once a floppy is inserted, it can be read
                                via the “READ/WRITE DISKETTE” screen,
                                accessible via the Control Display Unit’s (CDU)
                                index page. When read or write operations are
                                occurring, the floppy drive’s activity light will flash.
                                Approximately five weeks after you first install the
                                aircraft, the CDU will warn of an outdated navigation
                                database during initialization. This message can be
                                ignored by pressing the line select key for “USE
                                EXPIRED DATA BASE” without any ill effects. The
                                database can be updated by following the menu
                                prompts on the “UPDATE DATA BASE” screen by
                                inserting the navigation data floppy disk and
                                performing the diskette read operation."

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • O Offline
                                  O Offline
                                  Outermarker
                                  wrote on last edited by Outermarker
                                  #19

                                  I'm still not entirely sure what exactly changes when switching to the GNS430. The AMS-850 can't draw curved lines, including holds, but does that change with the GNS? Or will it still not display them, just fly them correctly on autopilot?

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • A Online
                                    A Online
                                    Avionic
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #20

                                    My understanding is, that the job of the GNS430 is to be a second option for being the source for the autopilot. So if you want to fly something the original system can't do - you can chose to use the 430 to navigate by.
                                    So as mentioned in the latest video, it will not really mess with what the AMS-850 can do/display or touch your current flightplan. You have it behaving basically externally to the rest of the system but driving the autopilot, as it was only later retrofitted on the aircraft.

                                    https://youtu.be/ggVvze67_ME?si=R7Q-tvfUyO68eFp7&t=409

                                    You can also use GNSS as a source of position information so you don't have to rely on the many radio sources providing you with an accurate location for the AMS-850, but that is a bit of a different nuance.

                                    For the purists out there who want a more classic experience, I would suggest that Nick could perhaps "upgrade" the Starship to have the 430 toggleable in the tablet, just like in previous planes?
                                    With its location, it is of course not super intrusive, but it will still be in the back of the mind that if you glance down you can "cheat" and get your position. So if it is relatively simple to integrate an option for the 430 not being installed with some later update, it would be the icing on the cake.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • Black SquareB Offline
                                      Black SquareB Offline
                                      Black Square
                                      Black Square Developer
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #21

                                      You are correct on my intended purpose. Unfortunately, the number of people asking for various advanced navigation features and even more modern GPS units makes me wonder if I made the correct decision by including it. My only correction is that the GNS does not actually supply the GPS position information for the FMS. That comes from an LRU in the nose avionics bay, which can be monitored via the "LRN Status" screen on the CDU.

                                      I have seen the requests asking to hide the GNS altogether (if you don't initialize it, you can't cheat from the initialization screen), and I will consider how to quickly accomplish this before the aircraft is released.

                                      A 1 Reply Last reply
                                      1
                                      • hughesj2H Offline
                                        hughesj2H Offline
                                        hughesj2
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #22

                                        It's certainly a valid config from the looks of this....https://youtu.be/PNLXEMLemZ8?si=LeTboJ6PEHqXX8d0&t=338
                                        But configuration choices are always nice to have, one for SP1 thought rather than a release delay? 😉

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • Black SquareB Black Square

                                          You are correct on my intended purpose. Unfortunately, the number of people asking for various advanced navigation features and even more modern GPS units makes me wonder if I made the correct decision by including it. My only correction is that the GNS does not actually supply the GPS position information for the FMS. That comes from an LRU in the nose avionics bay, which can be monitored via the "LRN Status" screen on the CDU.

                                          I have seen the requests asking to hide the GNS altogether (if you don't initialize it, you can't cheat from the initialization screen), and I will consider how to quickly accomplish this before the aircraft is released.

                                          A Online
                                          A Online
                                          Avionic
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #23

                                          @Black-Square Impressive response if you get it changed to a toggle for the release this month. I was just imagining it being added in a patch post release.

                                          And yeah, good clarification that the GNSS position option for the integrated system is indeed not related to the GNS430 - my wording was a bit clunky.

                                          People will always have preferences going in different directions. The funky unique systems of the Starship will require learning new and different ways to do things.
                                          For some this will be solid gold and a fantastic experience. Endless hours will be spent playing around with the depths of the systems.
                                          Others prefer more to "just" fly from A to B and get everything set up as easily as they can while flying another new airplane. For these, the unique avionics might detract, while for the others it is the major selling point of this airplane.
                                          So honestly the Starship might not be the ideal plane from a pure time spent vs. money earned perspective (some of the pretty basic fighter jets on the Marketplace might dominate such a ranking), but I certainly hope you are rewarded with great sale numbers, and have seen many people impressed by the preview videos so far.
                                          I believe the core audience for your products is all about the depth and feel the passion poured into the development. They will love spending hours exploring all the unique features of this magnificent plane.

                                          Still, I also think it is important to have the 430 as an option for when you do not want to be an extra challenge for busy Vatsim controllers, needing special treatment.
                                          "Pilots shall not fly an RNAV 1 or RNAV 2 SID or STAR unless it can be retrieved from the on-board navigation database using the procedure name and is consistent with the procedure in the chart."
                                          As basically every SID/STAR on this side of the pond is moving to RNAV 1 and the onboard system only has approaches and not SID/STARs selectable (AFAIK), I feel this is the situations where the 430 might become handy.
                                          (Same challenge when flying with the KLN 90B, where the dev has included an option to show the P-RNAV procedures the real unit lacks.)

                                          The eventual videos showing full flights step by step will hopefully convince some of the people on the fence that they can make due without a touchscreen Garmin. One of the 750 devs also has a toolbar option that might be fit for some users (if it works with the starship - not entirely sure how universal it is?).

                                          Can't wait for more videos and to get my hands on this beauty.

                                          Black SquareB 1 Reply Last reply
                                          0
                                          Reply
                                          • Reply as topic
                                          Log in to reply
                                          • Oldest to Newest
                                          • Newest to Oldest
                                          • Most Votes


                                          • Login

                                          • Don't have an account? Register

                                          • Login or register to search.
                                          • First post
                                            Last post
                                          0
                                          • Categories
                                          • Recent
                                          • Tags
                                          • Popular
                                          • Users