Discount for Prior Owners
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@Derek said in Discount for Prior Owners:
So, admittedly, no discount on the bundle for owners of a single plane, but I think owners of both or the bundle would probably say that's only fair.
Could you explain why users who receive a 20% discount for two planes might see it as unfair to offer only a 10% discount (half) to those who own one (half)? By that same logic, wouldn’t it also seem unfair to offer no discount at all to those who own one plane instead of none?
Like I said, I’m happy to pay full price and don’t care if I could save 5 bucks. But in my opinion, it's not a good look.@Outermarker said in Discount for Prior Owners:
Could you explain why users who receive a 20% discount for two planes might see it as unfair to offer only a 10% discount (half) to those who own one (half)?
Not when you put it like that, no. However, if I said "Should someone who only bought one widget get a discount on two widgets when you bought two widgets and you only get the same?" they might have an issue. I appreciate you are suggesting different discount scales based on different levels of ownership. However, the problem with offering different tiers of discount and different rules* based on past purchases becomes complicated and difficult to administer. In theory, one could have a rule* that said if you bought the Bonanza you get 10% off the new Bonanza and if you bought the Baron you get 10% off the new Baron. That means the owner of both could get 20% off the SRP by once again buying both singly - but that wouldn't give them a discount on the bundle. This is because it's a bundle created in the cart from two unique products - not two bits of software made into one.
Sorry for the waffle, but we actually spend a lot of time arguing/debating these upgrade discounts for all our titles and always try to be as fair as possible. Zero consolation to you, unfortunately - fine words butter no parsnips - but the only other thing to add in our defence is that I can think of a few publishers/developers that wouldn't entertain the idea of any form of discount.*rule(s) as in cart coding, not as in 'law'.
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Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. I don’t want to let it slide that, obviously, there would be a discount if I were to go with just the Bonanza this time around, so I appreciate that. As I mentioned, I think the bundle price is reasonable as is, so I’m not upset about it, but I hope you understand where I was coming from.
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Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. I don’t want to let it slide that, obviously, there would be a discount if I were to go with just the Bonanza this time around, so I appreciate that. As I mentioned, I think the bundle price is reasonable as is, so I’m not upset about it, but I hope you understand where I was coming from.
As it happens, having gone over the internal discussions, I am now fairly sure the discount code you will get based on your ownership of a single product will work on any of the two single planes or the bundle (should you choose to buy). Scott's earlier post that I referenced was.... earlier. This is the worst of discussing the outcome before the event has actually taken place
There will be a full announcement once release is firm and then this debate can be revisited if needs be.
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As it happens, having gone over the internal discussions, I am now fairly sure the discount code you will get based on your ownership of a single product will work on any of the two single planes or the bundle (should you choose to buy). Scott's earlier post that I referenced was.... earlier. This is the worst of discussing the outcome before the event has actually taken place
There will be a full announcement once release is firm and then this debate can be revisited if needs be.
@Derek I was hoping you might say that. Whenever matters like this come up on the forum, I am pretty quick to say, "give us a minute to talk about that", because it's rarely set in stone until release day (for fairness). Thanks for looking into this! I'm sure I will hear the details from Scott.
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Well I feel I gotta jump in here. For starters I am a 767 line check airman. I do sim stuff because I love general aviation and always have. I do fly 172s and a turbo Mooney whenever I have the funds and time in the real world. For me flying a 767 and teaching people how to fly a 767 is how I pay the bills and put food on the table. But general aviation is where my heart is at.
So as a dedicated sim enthusiast with who know how many thousands of dollars wrapped up in this hobby, let me provide feedback for the developer. I love your products!!! Every aircraft I have purchased (and one I ended up buying twice lol). Ill cut to the chase- given the squabbling by some over a few dollars, I will purchase the Bonanza and Baron package full price with no discount*. Why? Because I want to show my appreciation for the hard work and QUALITY that I have found in Black Square products. Money talks, so I will say it as loud as I can- I WILL be paying full price! Thank you for such amazing and quality additions to this hobby. I mean that sincerely.
Now for wish list features that I would love to see.
- The ability to remove covers and chalks individually. That will make the walk around more immersive.
- The ability to do maintenance items such as change/ add oil, change individual brakes, replenish hyd fluids, etc.
- The ability to calculate performance on the tablet. Things like TO dist, accelerate stop, landing dist, etc.
Once again a genuine thank you for your hard work and dedication. The JF administrators can check that I will pay full price
If there are any other areas that I can help, please do reach out. For now back to my planning for what I'm gonna do for my day 1 purchase!*and no I aint rich, I wish I was. I just really really really do enjoy these products!
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I have read every word, and I appreciate you supplying the exact kind of dialog that I was looking for. There is no need to apologize, because all is well that ends well.
Your list of most important features could almost read as a Black Square Manifesto, including your fifth point about performance. I spend a tremendous time worrying about performance, because I was once the person trying to run my favorite aircraft on older hardware, and never want to put someone through that myself. This means foregoing an extra 4K texture for the undersides of the seats in the cabin (I'm joking, but only slightly) optimizing all my meshes by hand, and spending half a day planning a new code feature to be as efficient as possible. Also, your "emotion" claim is far from crap. Any marketing executive will tell you that we purchase on emotion, and I also want people to feel good about my aircraft. Not in an altruistic way, but I want to play into those emotions, and if possible, make people feel like they are taking part in history by learning to fly these aircraft. Nowhere was that effect greater than for Starship.
If there is anything I feel like I should push back on in your message, it's simply your comment about the tablet visualizers, and purely for the sake of transparency for anyone curious about the process of making aircraft. Each tablet interface is about 5,000 lines of code, and another 1,000 lines that drive the data. While it might seem simple to convert an existing calculation of cabin temperature into a visualizer (that has to be designed in a vector graphic such that it makes sense, and functions programmatically), nothing could be farther from the truth. Of course, that all had to start with learning how to even code something like a tablet interface in MSFS, and then avoid countless bugs and holes in Asobo's lightweight SVG rendering library, and then test it all. If I sounded like I took offense to any of your statements, they weren't about the "value" of my products (that's in the eye of the beholder), but merely the amount of time and effort that goes into creating what you see. I like to make it look effortless, but I work about 3,200hrs/yr on my aircraft, and this has been a particularly tough two weeks of 18hr days getting the Baron and Bonanza ready, and also a hard disk failure on my video editing computer over the weekend. It's not a sob story, and I expect no pity. This is just a rare instance where I thought it was worth sharing what it looks like to create these virtual machines.
Your thoughts on failures and wear and tear (no wonder they matter to you so much, given your career), and practicing failures was a top notch contribution. I have pondered something like you describe for many years, going back to when I was learning to fly. I think the potential for everything you say and more is absolutely there. The showstopper is just the technical realities that you're up against. The simulator is quite sparse in its failure abilities, and it would be ideal to integrate and outside program that could produce scenarios in any aircraft, like you also mention. I could go on about why things like flat tires and popped rivets are also so difficult to achieve in MSFS, but I hope you will forgive me if I don't. They are all possible. It's just a matter of time to develop those features, and how much you're willing to fight with the simulator to get what you want. If I had all the time in the world, I would leave no good idea undeveloped. However, I can assure you that when I am thinking about what to do in future aircraft, your ideas will be ringing in my ears. That's how we've ended up with 90% of the features in Black Square aircraft that we have today. The ringing just kept getting louder and louder until I had to make the feature. Thank you so much for contributing.
In a final remark, given the passion you've displayed here for all the elements I try to weave into each of my aircraft, I hope that you will take a second and third look at these aircraft and honor their heritage with one of your incredible around the world flights. I've wanted to do an around the world flight in any of my aircraft for years, but this is the plight of the aircraft developer: I only get to enjoy my aircraft when they are either unfinished or broken. When I send my users custom code solutions for their home cockpits, just as much as when I code new failure features, I do so because I want everyone to have the best simulation experience possible that makes your heart flutter on the rollout from a difficult landing in the middle of the night. It's that emotional factor you noted above. Nothing would make me happier than to see you enjoy these aircraft to their fullest, because if I can tug on your heartstrings with them, then I will know that the late nights were all worthwhile.
Pardon me if I got a little poetic there are the end. There's something about the bond of man and machine that gets me every time. Thanks again so much for turning this into a great conversation. If you ever need anything regarding any of my aircraft, you know where to find me, and I'm always happy to help!
@Black-Square If I may, on the visualizers, I did say I think they are cool. I probably tweaked my words a touch after that... but I would have guessed/assume that they took you a long time to implement. And they are from an engineering perspective, very cool. But I would have bought the Dukes without it on day 1. I suppose some may have not and you likely know if you are reaching more people and gaining more revenue because of it. I hope you are for the effort.
I have a long way to go on my current global flight in the Grand Duke, and I've already decided next up will be the Starship for something lengthy. I am also doing an "Australia tour," flying around the coast counter clockwise in the recently updated Piper Arrows by the JF team. So a few irons in the fire at once as they say. Starship might be a North American tour. Maybe do like similar sort of coastal route or something in Canada, US and Mexico or something. We'll see. Round the planet is a commitment of course. I've also done that in the 777-300ER. That felt like cheating, and aside from planning and landings was less interesting than flying 40+ stops in a light twin. I do enjoy the aircraft mind you (777), but just in sort of short spurts. It's not the same as the GA stuff in general, and of course, your aircraft in specific. And that harks back to my 5 points. I can get in a simpler aircraft simulation (like I guess say something closer to the included with sim stuff ) now and then and be okay with it, but I'm not going to commit to round the world or stuff like that as I'll get more out of the experience for sure when things can break. Just leaving the throttle wide open on those aircraft only results in some penalty in fuel burn / range. It's not gonna break ever. And knowing that destroys a lot of the experience for me.
The apology was certainly intended for you as I never meant any disrespect and it felt like you took some. It also was intended for the broader audience in a sense, this being a public forum. As I think I indicated, I admit when I am wrong. While I don't owe those folks a thing, but it's not who I endeavor to be, so that made it necessary. My original ask did come from honest feelings at the time, if probably choosing my words poorly. Regardless, I did see the trailer today for the airframes video at lunch. Fairly compelling I admit. I couldn't help but feel like your strong emphasis on the turboprop in it might have had a touch to do with my angst.... though I imagine you had recorded that some days ago. Regardless, good "hook" there from my couch :). At a mimimum, I'll watch for more content from you in the coming days.
Oh - and watch the work hours. Everyone loves the passion regardless. But 3200+ a year is really pushing it. I like to remember my Ferris Bueller: "Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
Best regards.
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@Black-Square If I may, on the visualizers, I did say I think they are cool. I probably tweaked my words a touch after that... but I would have guessed/assume that they took you a long time to implement. And they are from an engineering perspective, very cool. But I would have bought the Dukes without it on day 1. I suppose some may have not and you likely know if you are reaching more people and gaining more revenue because of it. I hope you are for the effort.
I have a long way to go on my current global flight in the Grand Duke, and I've already decided next up will be the Starship for something lengthy. I am also doing an "Australia tour," flying around the coast counter clockwise in the recently updated Piper Arrows by the JF team. So a few irons in the fire at once as they say. Starship might be a North American tour. Maybe do like similar sort of coastal route or something in Canada, US and Mexico or something. We'll see. Round the planet is a commitment of course. I've also done that in the 777-300ER. That felt like cheating, and aside from planning and landings was less interesting than flying 40+ stops in a light twin. I do enjoy the aircraft mind you (777), but just in sort of short spurts. It's not the same as the GA stuff in general, and of course, your aircraft in specific. And that harks back to my 5 points. I can get in a simpler aircraft simulation (like I guess say something closer to the included with sim stuff ) now and then and be okay with it, but I'm not going to commit to round the world or stuff like that as I'll get more out of the experience for sure when things can break. Just leaving the throttle wide open on those aircraft only results in some penalty in fuel burn / range. It's not gonna break ever. And knowing that destroys a lot of the experience for me.
The apology was certainly intended for you as I never meant any disrespect and it felt like you took some. It also was intended for the broader audience in a sense, this being a public forum. As I think I indicated, I admit when I am wrong. While I don't owe those folks a thing, but it's not who I endeavor to be, so that made it necessary. My original ask did come from honest feelings at the time, if probably choosing my words poorly. Regardless, I did see the trailer today for the airframes video at lunch. Fairly compelling I admit. I couldn't help but feel like your strong emphasis on the turboprop in it might have had a touch to do with my angst.... though I imagine you had recorded that some days ago. Regardless, good "hook" there from my couch :). At a mimimum, I'll watch for more content from you in the coming days.
Oh - and watch the work hours. Everyone loves the passion regardless. But 3200+ a year is really pushing it. I like to remember my Ferris Bueller: "Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
Best regards.
@t5s_blanco said in Discount for Prior Owners:
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
Just call me Abe Froman, The Sausage King of Chicago
Joking aside, I think about that line a lot... possibly more every day.Yes, I'm sorry to disappoint, but that video was recorded and in the can about two weeks ago, as you suspected. As I said above, your words will be ringing in my ears not just for this release, but for all future ones, as I decide what to highlight. Not in a bad way, but in the way that helps me learn what I should prioritize for my users. I spent the whole day today implementing feedback from the early previews of the Baron and Bonanza, which is always satisfying, because I know those features will be appreciated by someone, rather than just guessing.
I'll tell you what the theory was behind the tablet interface, actually. I have seen plenty of people who say, "this is unrealistic, therefore I don't want to look at it", but I had a sneaky plan when I set out to create it. The "problem" I identified with my Analog Series was that I put a tremendous amount of work into the simulations (which seem woefully unimpressive today, but each innovation builds upon the last), but it appeared that the public perception was that all I did was add some steam gauges to a default airplane. I saw the tablet as a form of undeniable proof of how much was being simulated. I think that even those who completely ignore the tablet are now aware of the depth of my simulations, which means mission accomplished.
Again, no need to apologize. The only thing I want at the end of the day is for you to have the best simulation experience possible with my aircraft. Part of that is sharing stories, ideas, and Ferris Bueller quotes.
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@t5s_blanco said in Discount for Prior Owners:
If you had made the discount 40% right away, I'd give you my credit card number right now (well okay, the merchant site). And yes I know there is a degree of being cheap in this, by interpretation.
Worth bearing in mind the old adage that if you make something of good quality and no-one complains your goods are too expensive, then they're too cheap and you need to put your prices up.
@Derek That adage is for sellers, not buyers. Buyers in a free market should want the best value at the best possible price ... always. Overpaying for a product is waste, and actually does more economic harm than good. Further, many people are willing to sacrafice quality for price. Actually a majority of consumers will do that, and that ends up driving people out of business who overvalue their product quality and feature set. Best case, they exist in a small niche.
I also didn't dissent on the $65 price of the bundle here ... I dissented on the value of the discount on this new product for having purchased the earlier bundle. That's not the same thing. I think $65 is likely a fair price for this product bundle. The Dukes are priced at $70 in the bundle, and I thought that was fair when I bought them on day 1. The Starship is only $55, and I would have guessed it would be $70 given the 3 year passion project, and I would have paid it without complaint. I was then, and am still surprised now it's only $55. Had I never bought the Analog Baron and Bonanza, I would be buying this at $65 immediately and I never would have said a thing about it. I may still end up buying it anyway after all this with the 20% discount, it comes down to my perception of value I am getting, which I already admitted, is growing as the videos from Nick come out vs. the original content from 2 days ago which as I was saying, was not doing it for me at the time.
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The Turbine Bonanza is reason enough for me to buy the whole package, discount or not, Day 1.
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what's the problem? no one is forcing us to buy!!! any work should be paid! if you don't like it, don't buy it. I'm completely on the developers' side.
