Crosswind performance is way, way off guys.
-
Hi,
Unfortunately, despite all of the wonderful technical achievements realized with the Turbine Duke, crosswind performance at present is simply not realistic at all. I fully realize that MSFS2020 has significant limitations inherent with its internal aerodynamic coding and that compromises simply have to be made, but the Black Square Duke has practically no stability on the runway in even a 10kt direct crosswind. Weathervaning tendency is exaggerated somewhere between 3 to 5 times what I would expect in a real aircraft of the Duke's category (albeit based on anecdotal rather than empirical evidence) in my personal experience.
SU15 will bring about some additional parameters with ground friction and tire physics of course, and I believe Black Square is already poised to incorporate these parameters into the Turbine Duke's flight model when SU15 is released, but there would have to be a radical change in crosswind performance with these new friction parameters to really impact the behavior I encounter.
I would encourage the developer to re-examine flight modeling with the Turbine Duke to attempt improving upon this very serious issue as so much is already perfect with Duke(s) at present. This aircraft is simply too good to be this compromised. ;)
Cheers.
-
In short, why do you think I so desperately wanted to wait until SU15 to release my aircraft? :) The SU15 ground handling physics are a seriously substantial improvement from the eyes of a real pilot. For the first time ever, I feel like flight sim tires are made of real rubber.
I took the Duke for a short flight before addressing the rest of your commentary, just to make sure that I was speaking from the most up to date information. I'm obviously on SU15, so I can't make a direct comparison to SU14, unfortunately, but I can confirm for anyone worried about the tire physics disappearing in the latest version of the SU15 Beta that everything is still working well.
I did some takeoffs and landings at the maximum demonstrated crosswind component of 25kts. That's the maximum alright! It's very possible to get some good landings in those conditions, though. Takeoff was a breeze with the new physics, so long as you mind your crosswind aileron corrections. The nose wheel maintains control and the aircraft aligned with the runway until around 70-80kts when the rudder becomes the more effective of the two. Around 80% rudder deflection is required, which is accurate to all the airplanes I've flown under those conditions in real life. The only difficult part once you're back on the ground is maintaining centerline while slowing through 40-50kts, but that's without using differential braking. I might also add that I've always found crosswind landings to be substantially more difficult in flight simulator than in real life. I think it's just the lack of sensation, and lack of fine rudder control.
As for weathervaning, if referring to the SU14 and prior tendency of aircraft to surf sideways around the runway, even at low speeds, then yes, that's almost entirely gone with SU15. If referring to the angle the aircraft makes with the ground while approaching or departing the runway (crab-angle), this is not a function of the aircraft. All aircraft will exhibit the same wind correction angle for a given true airspeed and wind condition. At the 25kt crosswind component and 100kt approach speed for the Duke, that's a wind correction angle of 14°. The ~15° crab-angle is generally a universal for maximum crosswind landings in all sizes of aircraft, from two-seaters, all the way up to the 747. This is one of the reasons that carrying more speed into your crosswind approach makes the landing easier. Greater airspeed reduces the crab-angle.
I hope that answers some of your questions. Pardon me for being so verbose. I'm just coming off of writing another narrative for the thread on Turbine Duke ranges after a long night of testing. I guess the answer might just come down to you trying SU15, after which you're welcome tell me what you think of the crosswind performance, and we can go from there. I'm more than happy to work on the aerodynamic configuration however I can to improve my aircraft, but I also wanted to give you the response you deserve after the complimentary things you have said about my aircraft. In the meantime, happy (low crosswind) flying!
-
Thank you for taking the time and effort to make this excellent reply, and please never apologize for being verbose! I already knew you were a real pilot just from the fidelity of the Duke aircraft alone, and I strongly suspect you have an engineering background as well. A typical developer for MSFS2020 would never even attempt most of the things you've achieved on the simulator platform.
For the reasons stated above, I was surprised the aircraft was released in this kind of flight modeling state, but now I completely understand the situation. In short, the Dukes were modeled specifically for the new parameters in SU15, and flying on a SU14 MSFS2020 platform is a temporary compromise during the interim until SU15 is officially released.
I'll keep the crosswinds tame until update 15 rolls around then. :) Again, thank you for all this helpful information.
-
Tested the Turbine Duke again today post SU15 final installation. Sorry, but the excessive weathervaning with the Turbine Duke is not really fixed at all. I do notice more tire 'grip' on the runway surface that makes dealing with the weathervaning somewhat more manageable in that over-controlling tendency is now partially mitigated during takeoff and landing roll(s), but the flight dynamics are still way off here.
There is a post on the official Flight Simulator forum in which a Turbine Duke customer detailed a modification to rudder effectiveness in the Flight.cfg file that really seemed to make the SU14 version handle much better in crosswinds. Increased tire 'grip' in SU15 is really more of Band-Aid fix for the horrible weathervaning, however, in my personal opinion. I did revert to the original Flight.cfg file before testing with SU15, of course.
I'm not sure that 99 percent of Flight Simulator users would even really notice or care about the issue though, so it may not really be worth the effort. I'm one of the very few hardcore users that nit-picks with this kind of stuff and I hardly represent the masses. ;)
Good luck with the Dukes though!
-
FWIW - I found SU14 weathervaning while taxying and during rollout to be horrendous. After installing SU15 I've done 2 flights and while the desire to turn was still present it was very much more controllable. I was able to apply offset rudder and pretty much keep it there whereas in SU14 I was weaving all over.
Not a controlled test by any stretch but (to me) a significant improvement.
-
@brennan Honestly, the weathervaning is still so bad in a crosswind that I am seriously beginning to suspect Asobo's new ground friction variables aren't fully implemented in SU15 at this stage. I do seem to sense more tire 'grip' on the runway post SU15 install, but it's subtle at best. I can keep the aircraft on the runway, but very seldom on the centerline post SU15.
The flight.cfg mod posted on the official Flight Simulator forum made the situation MUCH more bearable in SU14, but with SU15 and the new ground friction variables included in the stock flight.cfg file for the Turbine Duke, crosswind performance is actually WORSE than with SU14, at least in regard to weathervaning when using the unmodified 'factory' Flight.cfg file in SU15.
Perusing the official MSFS2020 forum, I'm seeing several users posting that they notice no change in ground friction after installing SU15, which supports my suspicion that Asobo didn't fully implement the new friction variables.
I trust the average car mechanic fixing my car more that I trust what Asobo tells people about what they're actually doing with MSFS2020. That's about as insulting as I can be here, trust me, lol.
-
I have been watching this thread with interest being new to an aircraft that you actually need rudder input than the normally what I’m used to within the sim. Most of the time I don’t really need a lot of input at all the planes sometimes feel like they are on rails . Since the dukes have been released I have mostly been flying the turbine and learning a lot about not only the sim plane but the rl one as well , most of my flights have been in my local area so from Moorabbin in Victoria to st Helen’s in Tasmania with live weather on on all flights . My first day of flying was with sim update 14 and taxi and take off and landing felt like driving around on ice with the turbine the piston was a little better but also I was still learning the the turbine with using beta range to taxi . I found the brakes would not always hold the plane on run up so I did about 3 flights and gave up on sim 14 and downloaded beta sim update 15 total fresh download and reloaded the dukes , ground handling was way better and I had no problems keeping the plane on centreline till take off taxi again was fine , so everyday since then I have flown the same route and most of the time the winds at st Helen’s have been mild to slight cross wind landings where fine slight rudder input. Last night the wind was gusting the wind sock was almost 90 degrees to the runway with slight movement to from the east so I picked runway 08 for my landing I ended up flying more into the wind and corrected on landing with the rudder by touch down I was almost full rudder and also holding the wings level landing was fine taxi back the plane needed rudder correction to keep on canter but was only mild next to the rudder input on landing . All up I love the flight model the plane is just so much fun to fly you never know what your going to get . To put it this way I only see myself flying the turbine most of the time .
-
One of the "interesting" aspects of this sim is it seems that no two people will report the same experience making the same flight in the same sim. I think there are two reasons for this.
1). Each person has differing expectations based on knowledge, experience, how they think things work irl and also how they want things to work/feel.
2). Every system is different. CPU/GPU/Controllers/Add-ons - I have a "decent" PC and GPU but am also running SPAD, FSUIPC, FSLTL, BATC, GSX, ACARS client and a shed ton of add-on scenery and planes all of which we know can have unexpected effects on the base sim. Add to that rudders, 2 x stick/yoke, throttle quadrant, track-ir, 2 x FIP, Multi-panel, Loupedeck...... I'm sure there's more - I'm up to about 15 occupied USB ports so far, oh yeah 3 x monitors.... Honestly the only wonder is it ever works at all..
WRT to the actual topic I will say that for me on my setup, the ground handling in the Duke is significantly improved for the better to where I no longer see it as something to be addressed.
I LOVE the Dukes - amazing work for one man (and Boris). How I wish this team would give me a 727 or 707 :-)
-
wondering, if different sim setting may impact the feedbacks, are you using legacy or modern flight model ? I did not tried on my end, and can't affirm this has an impact it s just a suggestion.
-
I run the sim in modern and also set 100% realism on all settings. I agree ask 100 people and you will get 100 different answers so not to say some are right or wrong. I did the same flight tonight as I have been doing all this week again live weather and the same flight and funny enough same runway the wind was 110 at 14 I made sure to remember, runway 08 again this time rudder input was way less than last night the plane did float but that was me being a little too high but I was able to land mostly center and taxi back slight rudder input to taxi so as for the flight model for the way I fly again I like it the plane has feeling. Now would I compare it to RL well if I was to fly the RL turbine Duke I would be able to tell how close the flight model was to rl as I do not have access to an RL one I can't make that call my RL flying experience is limited to a single engine piper, so with my RL experience my benchmark for the sim is the piper but I tend to think the Comanche is more what I would call the gold standard for flight models within the sim and the way I look at it we can't feel what the plane is doing as we would in a real aircraft but how I think about it is by watching the plane flying and as I input my controls into the plane I watch it move around and if the flight model can trick my eyes and mind into thinking the plane is really flying then it feels right. so after over 1000 hours in the sim and flying all sorts of planes, I get a feeling for what I think it should fly and the duke has no problems in giving me what I am looking for so for me that's a good model now course others will have a different view and I think the developers would have a hard time making the perfect flight model. I think we are so lucky to have sims that can offer so much in our enjoyment of flight without even leaving the ground.
Oh,I do have to add that black square do an amazing job with both the Dukes and the TBM now for the steam gauge series I was tempted but I have issues with plane doors and windows not working so I will wait for asbo to fix that with 2024 . smiles
Also, I put the Duke's level with the Comanche as my fav planes... -
I have to agree with @Ballinger-France on this one.
I already noticed in SU14 there was a lot of weathervaning and was expecting it could be due the missing SU15. However now with SU15 i barely notice any difference. A quick test with a 10kt crosswind results in like 5 degree per second turning tendancy while taxing slowly with 800-900rpm in the piston duke. I do not have any real experience in this plane, but do have experience in real life with Piper warriors and archers and it's hard to image that it would turn this quickly given these conditions.
Hopefully you can work out this issue. It's something i've seen with other addon planes in the sim before (e.g. the Justflights Pipers Arrow/Warrior series).
Thanks!
-
I did a take-off and landing in the Dukes both piston and turbine and also the 414aw the Comanche and the C510 Mustang same airport and mostly the same crosswind of 10knots the 414 rudder and aileron movement was needed to land level and maintain control mustang was the easiest of the planes to land. the hardest was the Comanche which tends to skate over the runway, dukes were about the same as the 414 both I managed to keep mostly straight piston was off centerline but that was my flying, not the model and then I did one landing in the piston in live weather. I think the sim in general will exacerbate next to rl flying in crosswinds. but at no time was I not able to enjoy the planes they all have little quirks and if your flying them all the time your going to adust your flying to sure like in rl no aircraft is going to be the same as the next one.
-
@Ballinger-France
Here is vid that shows case variety of airplanes struggle with cross wind to keep directional control.
https://youtu.be/7P9OAng32F0?si=TQSZnm1ocS4j4Dxa -
I have done a few flights with the Duke since SU15 released and can't say it's uncontrollable. Granted, I reduced a lot of sensitivities and control curves for SU14, and that helped a lot with twitchy corrections, but I don't have any complaints. I am able to track the centerline rather well in the Duke.
-
For anyone discuss their opinions here, would it not be sensible to list a few specifics of your setup? The various hardware & sensitivity settings will make a vast difference. At least two people with similar setups can compare their thoughts more easily then. At the very least:
- Type of rudder pedals
- Rudder axis sensitivity setting from the MSFS controls menu
I only recently discovered (hadn't checked before) that each named control profile in MSFS will save the sensitivity sliders along with that profile, so it's easy to have different sensitivities (if required) for each aircraft. This might help people to 'dial in' settings which work better in the Duke vs other (especially default) aircraft.
I find most aircraft to be 'twitchy' in pitch with my short-throw Saitek yoke, so I set my elevator sensitivity way down to -35% as standard. Works fine for most aircraft. But with the Comanche, I have to put it nearer to zero (i.e. straight line response) so it doesn't feel unresponsive in pitch. I guess that A2A aimed for a realistic feeling with default controller curves which most (?) player will be using. Makes sense, but it makes that aircraft feel totally different to default aircraft, meaning one control profile doesn't suit all aircraft now.
I'm probably preaching to the choir, but thought more specific data would help the discussion along :)
-
I very sincerely respect everyone's personal opinions on this thread and I'm appreciative of all the insight offered. :)
I will restate that weathervaning with the Blacksquare Turbine Duke is grossly exaggerated. The new ground physics variables integral to SU15 do not address or fix this weathervaning behavior, although there is definitely better controllability with SU15 installed. The SU15 enhanced ground physics are far from a magic fix, however, and most crosswind takeoff and landings with the Blacksquare Duke are simply unrealistic.
Having said this, I'm convinced the Blacksquare Developer himself is an absolute genius and his achievements with the Dukes overall are nothing less than brilliant. It's just that MSFS2020 is a flawed simulator platform in general; Asobo/Microsoft would much rather cater to the gaming crowd and talk about how pretty the scenery is rather than seriously address core aerodynamic fidelity.
I honestly feel bad that brilliant developers even have to attempt to interface genius with stupidity (this is a direct shot at YOU, Asobo). ;)
99 percent of the simming demographic aren't concerned with how the aircraft behaves in a crosswind though, so it's no biggie really in the larger sense. Lots of people out there just having fun with everything without worrying about too many details, and that counts for a lot.
-
My question is where does the dukes stand up within the sim to what other aircraft as to crosswind performance ???? Or are we comparing xplane to msfs or we talking rl to msfs ????
We need a baseline for how you conclude that the dukes are totally unrealistically in crosswind .
-
@emmaflic The A2A Simulations Comanche 250 is the gold standard for how a real aircraft should behave in a crosswind, but A2A are using their own custom physics code that runs outside of the main MSFS platform (you can't fix stupid but you can completely bypass it, hehe). I would say the Milviz 310R is the second runner up. I can't give you a compilation of empirical evidence that supports my conclusion about the Blacksquare Duke's ground physics, but it will weathervane on a taxiway going 5 kts and go off the pavement unless significant rudder input is applied in even a moderate crosswind. The real aircraft has a max gross takeoff weight of 7000lbs - it shouldn't do this. MAYBE an ultralight in a similar situation. ;)
Good 'ole Microsoft hasn't even released a SDK that details how the new SU15 ground physics variables actually work to the best of my knowledge, but it's well known that Asobo disabled the variables at different times with successive beta SU15 releases. Who knows what state the final release version of SU15 incorporates in this regard. I can tell you that a lot of people on the official Flight Simulator forum are posting that they can discern NO difference with the default MSFS aircraft that supposedly incorporate the new ground physics variables.
Again though, all of this is subjective. If you don't agree with me and find the Turbine Duke flight dynamics perfectly acceptable as is, have fun flying and don't worry about anything else. ;)
-
@Ballinger-France
I would agree the gold standard is the Comanche as far as an all round aircraft goes within the sim . As for the 310 I have the other version of it and I was never a real fan of the 310 in general so I will take your word on its flight model.
Now back to the dukes both in taxi and also take off and landing with a set crosswind I find I’m using about the same amount of rudder for both the dukes and the 414 reason I picked that aircraft is it’s comparable with the dukes being the piston one being a lot closer , for the turbine that is a different ballgame being its engines are added to a otherwise piston airframe so its performance is going to be different witch it is next to the piston one and I feel there is a big difference between the both dukes . On the weekend I will give the 414 and the dukes and the Comanche another round of set cross wind take offs and landing and see what I find . In my normal sim flying I’m using live weather so I’m at the mercy of the sim most of the landings to date have been find as in with the normal amount of learning the aircraft also with the flying I mostly do it’s more joy flights so I’m managing the aircraft and mostly in cruse I’m in outside view enjoying the view most would take that as more gaming but there are times I do like to do more flight training then I care more about the way the aircraft behaves hence my interest in things like crosswind performance and also IFR.
Now to the sim , I started flight simulators when I was doing flight training and I would use xplane with piper arrow as at the time I was flying a piper warrior and my goal at the time was to do my lesson n jump in the sim to practice what I did for the day , I didn’t think much about the way the sim plane flew and I hated that the visuals were just average next to what we have now with both msfs and xplane . Now I’m sure asobo has taken msfs 2020 as far as it goes with the underlying code as to how how the planes behave and time will tell if they address the shortcomings with 2024… -
@emmaflic Sounds like you know your stuff, especially with both real-world flight experience and extensive time using the sims. I'll be really interested in your take on the subject.
I have a PPL, tailwheel endorsement, and a current medical. I have time in a Piper Cherokee, Piper Pacer, and a Aeronca Champ (Flying Bathtub). We are already seeing 100F+ days here in Texas so in the afternoons you do about as much bouncing as you do flying. ;)
It's easy to get frustrated with MSFS when one sets expectations too high though; there have been and always will be serious limitations with the platform. Really, really in-depth addons like the Blacksquare Dukes come along and I get super excited about the chance to experience something ultra-realistic in a vast sea of crap addons, lol. I want it to be perfect but I lose sight of the bigger picture and the endless challenges MSFS imposes upon even the most gifted developers. It's also quite easy to simply 'disable' crosswind effect altogether on the ground in MSFS by making a quick tweak to the Flight.cfg file. This is not realistic at all but then again neither is the weathervaning.
