Pitch "jerks"
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@delta558 said in Pitch "jerks":
The PA28 series will NOT be made to fly like the default aircraft just to deal with one area of the flight envelope. There is too much fundamentally wrong with the sim, combined with the aforementioned lack of stability to even entertain that idea.
The only issue for me is the immersion breaking jerky and stuttering pitch axis in windy conditions... Is there an edit (for people who want to do it) that can be made to the FD file that removes this behaviour even if it means the aircraft is less realistic in other areas? I'd rather have no jerky motion and slightly less realistic FD. As it is, with the jerky pitch axis I can't even be bothered flying the Arrow.
Fix this issue and the Arrow is 10/10, but currently it's just a 7/10 imho.
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@MatthewS
I don’t want to sound like a fanboy or to mute critics, I also don’t own the Arrow line, only the Warrior, but to my liking it’s one of the most realistic aircraft currently in the sim. That is, in terms of handling, there are still issues with performance which I hope will be amended.Regarding the JF Warrior, I haven’t noticed any jerks, as you call them, but I struggle to understand what exactly you mean. I don’t know if you are a real-world flyer, but what exactly you’d expect? An airplane in turbulence feels more like periodic kicks under your chair, not like a boat on smooth waves. And from this perspective, the Warrior's behaviour in turbulence is very natural.
Anyway, here is what you can do. Open the flight_model.cfg, find the [flight_tuning] section. There are two parameters:
pitch_stability
pitch_gyro_stabilityAccording to the SDK description, decreasing the first and increasing the second should reduce the turbulence impact on the aircraft in the corresponding axis. You can try that.
@SebastianR What, if I may, do you like about the default aircraft? You’ve mentioned DA40, but a real DA40 is a pleasure to fly. It’s one of the simplest aircraft I’ve flown after C172. In the sim, on the contrary, it’s as rigorous and ruthless as a rodeo bull. As a different example, when I first loaded the C152 wind challenge I was astonished by how unrealistic that stupid yaw swing was. I wouldn’t like to see JF Warrior fly any close to the default aircraft. They behave completely unnaturally.
P.S.: about $44, it’s a bit cheaper in the other sim store. I’m not sure I can name it here. You know… the market… for the sim… Not the internal marketplace.
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@walterbeech said in Pitch "jerks":
pitch_stability
pitch_gyro_stabilityOk thanks I'll give it a try.
What, if I may, do you like about the default aircraft? You’ve mentioned DA40, but a real DA40 is a pleasure to fly.
That was Sebastian's comment, not mine.
Regarding the JF Warrior, I haven’t noticed any jerks, as you call them, but I struggle to understand what exactly you mean. I don’t know if you are a real-world flyer, but what exactly you’d expect? An airplane in turbulence feels more like periodic kicks under your chair, not like a boat on smooth waves. And from this perspective, the Warrior's behaviour in turbulence is very natural.
Have a look at these videos from Sebastian above, you can clearly see the unnatural jerky movements in the pitch axis. No I'm not a real world pilot, but there's no way a plane in real life can defy the laws of physics and jerk instantly in the pitch axis like that, with seemingly no inertia at all...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zf0rFlkXaU&ab_channel=asmrudnicki
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHUEk4kNSeM&ab_channel=asmrudnicki -
@MatthewS Sorry that I mixed your comment with Sebastian's. Thanks for the videos, I can see what you mean now. I cannot see anything defying laws of physics on these videos. On the contrary, I think this is the best way to visually translate the acceleration feeling you have in real turbulence. These kicks and jerks is exactly how it feels and, in fact, to me it looks very realistic. I hope JF won't change that. This 'light chop' is what you can sometimes observe in real life closely watching an aircraft taking off.
Mind you, inertia is the result of mass distribution. In a light aircraft like Arrow mass is not very much distributed along the longitudinal axis, it's pretty much concentrated near the physical centre of the aircraft.
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@walterbeech I didn't say that default DA40 flying great, but modded DA40 flying very well regarding from what I remember when I flew it in RL.
Yes, I'm RL pilot. I also flew Piper. I haven't written anywhere that we expect no turbulence or
reduction to quality of basic aircraft.In Just Flight Pipers it is in the vertical axis to the same distance on-off, which gives the feeling that some frames of the animation are broken or compared to the movement of the penguin's head. In fact, the movements in the RL, vertical axis are different, sometimes larger, harder, sometimes smaller, but generally smooth and sometimes wild, and that's what we mean.
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@sebastianr said in Pitch "jerks":
but modded DA40 flying very well regarding from what I remember when I flew it in RL
I beg to disagree. I've tried the modded one and in terms of handling it's almost as bad as the default one.
In Just Flight Pipers it is in the vertical axis to the same distance on-off, which gives the feeling that some frames of the animation are broken or compared to the movement of the penguin's head.
I'm sorry I can't quite grasp what you are saying here. Watching the videos Matthew has provided I can't say it looks like something is broken.
In fact, the movements in the RL, vertical axis are different, sometimes larger, harder, sometimes smaller, but generally smooth and sometimes wild, and that's what we mean.
Of course, they are. They are different, obviously, and more diverse, as you say. I myself work in the professional flight sim training industry and know that modelling realistic turbulence effects is one of the hardest tasks. I think that JF did the task very well. When you are saying that the behaviour seems broken you'll have to do better job at explaining (not to me) what exactly you mean, because I, for one, can't see anything wrong. This is not meant to belittle your claim.
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@SebastianR By the way. If it is the animation problem, as you suggest, then it has nothing to do with the JF model. Because JF can affect the animation of the model parts, but not the animation of the whole aircraft in the FS environment, it's the problem of the sim in general. As delta558 said above, there are things fundamentally wrong with this sim and they are beyond our control.
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@walterbeech said in Pitch "jerks":
I cannot see anything defying laws of physics on these videos. On the contrary, I think this is the best way to visually translate the acceleration feeling you have in real turbulence.
I can, and imo it's the acceleration/decelaration that is too rapid (ie "jerky"), it's almost instantaneous, as if the aircraft has no weight (ie too little inertia). You need to fly the aircraft in sim to "feel" exactly what it's like, it absolutely feels artifical.
But I'll give those pitch stability tweaks you mentioned above a go, maybe thats all I need to get it feeling right (for me).
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I'm on the mobile phone typing this and have lost track of who has said what.
In regard to 'vertical movement with seemingly no inertia', have a look at this video of a Strikemaster being flown at low-level. Admittedly slightly faster than the PA28s, but it is not being flown 'flat out' :
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@walterbeech Let's see what next update bring to us. Devs know this case and I'm sure sort it out.
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I just did two identical test flights in both the Arrow III and the default Bonanza G36, in identical windy weather conditions, over city buildings (Los Angeles) and nearby hilly terrain and I found that the G36 was actually affected more by the turbulence than the Arrow III was... The G36 was bounced around in both the pitch and yaw axis much more than the Arrow III. The only diffrence was, the G36 is about 1,000 lbs. heavier (empty weight) and therefore has a much greater MOI, which results in the turbulence induced pitch and yaw oscillations being somewhat slower than in the Arrow III.... But, the magnitude of the oscillations in the G36 was also much greater. I recommend doing this same test if you want to compare the effects of turbulence on these aircraft in MSFS.
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@delta558 said in Pitch "jerks":
In regard to 'vertical movement with seemingly no inertia', have a look at this video of a Strikemaster being flown at low-level. Admittedly slightly faster than the PA28s, but it is not being flown 'flat out' :
Yes, very rapid vertical movement but it looks "smooth" and I see the inertia in this real world video, just look at the guys heads, there's no instant "snapping" of head position but a smooth (though rapid) acceleration/decelleration of the head position.
So maybe the issue in MSFS is one of framerate and if frames are dropped during the rapid vertical movement then that's what causes the perception of it being "jerky" with seemingly no inertia.
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@sebastianr said in Pitch "jerks":
@walterbeech Let's see what next update bring to us. Devs know this case and I'm sure sort it out.
Yes lets hope so...
I'd be happy if the "fix" is nothing more than an offical "how-to" tweak the FD file that an affected user can make to tone down the apparent "jerky" motion if they so desire. Then every customer is satisfied.
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For comparison, turbulent flight in a real PA28:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QokuGrWMF_U -
@sender46 Nice video, and as with the other real world video, the real world video shows very rapid vertical movement but it looks "smooth" and I see the inertia in this real world video, there's no instant "snapping" of the aircraft's position but a smooth (though rapid) acceleration/decelleration of the aircraft position, unlike what I'm (and others are) seeing in MSFS with the Arrow where the aircraft's position "jerks" instantly as if the aircraft weighs nothing, has no inertia and is able to defy physics.
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@matthews This is one of those weird situations where I am going to have to try to make the aircraft 'wrong' so it looks 'right'. Look at the wing in the video I posted - it is a series of short, sharp shocks with a small amount of airframe flexibility. The pilot is then lifted within his seat/strap combination and is slightly softer in the reaction, the reaction of the head / human is secondary. The sim's interaction of weather with aircraft is not as subtle as in the real world. To get the 'view' correct for this is going to involve making allowances for the harshness of the sim turbulence and softness and flexibility of the human!
Bear in mind that the SDK update alongside SU6 has finally started to give some pointers as to what does what in the flight model - until now it has been a case of experience from FSX/P3D alongside some guesswork, because we had nothing else to tell us what this new flight model actually does!
I'm looking at the files at the moment and trying to strike a balance, so hopefully there will be something in the near future.
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@sender46 While this is a great video of the real aircraft flying in windy conditions, it's unfortunate that it was flying entirely over a flat sparsely populated area, with no city buildings or hills to cause turbulent updrafts... So, I don't know if it can really be used a valid comparison for those conditions in the sim. Also, keep in mind that the sims ability to realistically model windy turbulant conditions is a huge unknown factor in the ultimate flight performance and realism of this, or any other aircraft. The level of realistic flight behavior could be limited by either one...
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@retiredman93231 Fair comment. What about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc0HemKdqAc
