Pitch "jerks"
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@sebastianr said in Pitch "jerks":
but modded DA40 flying very well regarding from what I remember when I flew it in RL
I beg to disagree. I've tried the modded one and in terms of handling it's almost as bad as the default one.
In Just Flight Pipers it is in the vertical axis to the same distance on-off, which gives the feeling that some frames of the animation are broken or compared to the movement of the penguin's head.
I'm sorry I can't quite grasp what you are saying here. Watching the videos Matthew has provided I can't say it looks like something is broken.
In fact, the movements in the RL, vertical axis are different, sometimes larger, harder, sometimes smaller, but generally smooth and sometimes wild, and that's what we mean.
Of course, they are. They are different, obviously, and more diverse, as you say. I myself work in the professional flight sim training industry and know that modelling realistic turbulence effects is one of the hardest tasks. I think that JF did the task very well. When you are saying that the behaviour seems broken you'll have to do better job at explaining (not to me) what exactly you mean, because I, for one, can't see anything wrong. This is not meant to belittle your claim.
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@SebastianR By the way. If it is the animation problem, as you suggest, then it has nothing to do with the JF model. Because JF can affect the animation of the model parts, but not the animation of the whole aircraft in the FS environment, it's the problem of the sim in general. As delta558 said above, there are things fundamentally wrong with this sim and they are beyond our control.
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@walterbeech said in Pitch "jerks":
I cannot see anything defying laws of physics on these videos. On the contrary, I think this is the best way to visually translate the acceleration feeling you have in real turbulence.
I can, and imo it's the acceleration/decelaration that is too rapid (ie "jerky"), it's almost instantaneous, as if the aircraft has no weight (ie too little inertia). You need to fly the aircraft in sim to "feel" exactly what it's like, it absolutely feels artifical.
But I'll give those pitch stability tweaks you mentioned above a go, maybe thats all I need to get it feeling right (for me).
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I'm on the mobile phone typing this and have lost track of who has said what.
In regard to 'vertical movement with seemingly no inertia', have a look at this video of a Strikemaster being flown at low-level. Admittedly slightly faster than the PA28s, but it is not being flown 'flat out' :
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@walterbeech Let's see what next update bring to us. Devs know this case and I'm sure sort it out.
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I just did two identical test flights in both the Arrow III and the default Bonanza G36, in identical windy weather conditions, over city buildings (Los Angeles) and nearby hilly terrain and I found that the G36 was actually affected more by the turbulence than the Arrow III was... The G36 was bounced around in both the pitch and yaw axis much more than the Arrow III. The only diffrence was, the G36 is about 1,000 lbs. heavier (empty weight) and therefore has a much greater MOI, which results in the turbulence induced pitch and yaw oscillations being somewhat slower than in the Arrow III.... But, the magnitude of the oscillations in the G36 was also much greater. I recommend doing this same test if you want to compare the effects of turbulence on these aircraft in MSFS.
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@delta558 said in Pitch "jerks":
In regard to 'vertical movement with seemingly no inertia', have a look at this video of a Strikemaster being flown at low-level. Admittedly slightly faster than the PA28s, but it is not being flown 'flat out' :
Yes, very rapid vertical movement but it looks "smooth" and I see the inertia in this real world video, just look at the guys heads, there's no instant "snapping" of head position but a smooth (though rapid) acceleration/decelleration of the head position.
So maybe the issue in MSFS is one of framerate and if frames are dropped during the rapid vertical movement then that's what causes the perception of it being "jerky" with seemingly no inertia.
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@sebastianr said in Pitch "jerks":
@walterbeech Let's see what next update bring to us. Devs know this case and I'm sure sort it out.
Yes lets hope so...
I'd be happy if the "fix" is nothing more than an offical "how-to" tweak the FD file that an affected user can make to tone down the apparent "jerky" motion if they so desire. Then every customer is satisfied.
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For comparison, turbulent flight in a real PA28:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QokuGrWMF_U -
@sender46 Nice video, and as with the other real world video, the real world video shows very rapid vertical movement but it looks "smooth" and I see the inertia in this real world video, there's no instant "snapping" of the aircraft's position but a smooth (though rapid) acceleration/decelleration of the aircraft position, unlike what I'm (and others are) seeing in MSFS with the Arrow where the aircraft's position "jerks" instantly as if the aircraft weighs nothing, has no inertia and is able to defy physics.
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@matthews This is one of those weird situations where I am going to have to try to make the aircraft 'wrong' so it looks 'right'. Look at the wing in the video I posted - it is a series of short, sharp shocks with a small amount of airframe flexibility. The pilot is then lifted within his seat/strap combination and is slightly softer in the reaction, the reaction of the head / human is secondary. The sim's interaction of weather with aircraft is not as subtle as in the real world. To get the 'view' correct for this is going to involve making allowances for the harshness of the sim turbulence and softness and flexibility of the human!
Bear in mind that the SDK update alongside SU6 has finally started to give some pointers as to what does what in the flight model - until now it has been a case of experience from FSX/P3D alongside some guesswork, because we had nothing else to tell us what this new flight model actually does!
I'm looking at the files at the moment and trying to strike a balance, so hopefully there will be something in the near future.
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@sender46 While this is a great video of the real aircraft flying in windy conditions, it's unfortunate that it was flying entirely over a flat sparsely populated area, with no city buildings or hills to cause turbulent updrafts... So, I don't know if it can really be used a valid comparison for those conditions in the sim. Also, keep in mind that the sims ability to realistically model windy turbulant conditions is a huge unknown factor in the ultimate flight performance and realism of this, or any other aircraft. The level of realistic flight behavior could be limited by either one...
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@retiredman93231 Fair comment. What about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc0HemKdqAc -
Another thing to note when comparing Youtube videos of flying in turbulence with what you experience in the sim is Head Shake... If you have Head Shake ebnabled in the Cockpit camera settings, you will be seeing what the pilot sees, not what a fixed camera attached to the aircraft sees... What the fixed camera sees, and shows in the video, is much different in terms of how much the nose appears to move up and down against the horizon! So, for a fair comparison you should turn off Head Shake, in addition to flying at the same altitude over the same terrain, and in the same wind conditions as shown in the video.
I just performed a test flight from the same location (Coventry), at the same altitude (3000 ft.), and in the same wind conditions (280 at 14 knots) as the video posted above, with camera Head Shake turned OFF as it would be for a camera attached to the aircraft... and the results were surprisingly almost identical in terms of the aircrafts pitch stability and response to turbulence... Try it for yourself.
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Someone wondered about the Warrior. Here is how my Warrior flies in turbulence. I can't see anything wrong.
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Just bought the turbos and the first thing I noticed was that weird vertical movement you're talking about. In fact entered this forum to see if I could find something about that. Agree that it is annoying and immersion breaking, specially on landings. It feels artificial, like if the plane is artificially overriding the air bumps, or vertical movements or something like that. I totally understand the current limitations of MSFS and really hope that this could be solved or at least softened in a future update. Otherwise it's a very very good aircraft.
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I haven't found a fix for it but what helped me is simply try to not counter it with stick input.
What is weird is that the pitch up and down mostly seems to be a visual thing, and the plane doesn't actually start to climb/descend as much as the instant visual change makes you think.Having flown mostly over smoother terrain i had nearly forgotten about this, but was reminded when i entered a hilly area. Really hoping for a dampened effect, or maibe not a dampened but have the pitch change actualy take a tiny bit more time so it looks less like a stutter and more like a punch from the air.
Edit: Should say though that while this is a major annoyance when i do fly over hilly/mountainous regions, having flown the (turbo)Arrows from the netherlands, over the UK, back through france and now in the midle of Africa, mostly handflown all the way, it is a downright fantastic plane in every other regard.
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Just commenting to see if anyone has gotten anywhere with this. An update came out today! Looking forward to seeing if anything changed with this problem. I have this same issue with the Turbo Arrow III and IV. My biggest issue is landing. It’s almost impossible to have a smooth landing with this problem. Just jerky movements up and down while trying to roll out and flare.
I actually submitted a support ticket earlier today and they responded saying to make sure I’m flying on “Modern” flight model, and that my joystick sensitivity is as they recommended. I assured them I was and it is. They said to send a video of the issue, so I’ll do that later and update here when I get a final response from them.
