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Take off roll issue

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved PA-28R Arrow III
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  • P Offline
    P Offline
    Peto Toobe
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    I have been having a persistent issue with the Arrow. In order to troubleshoot I just reinstalled a fresh version of PA-28R, v0.9.0 and checked my rudder pedal function/ calibration.

    I am experiencing a persistent jerk or abrupt swerve to the left just before takeoff. I have tried takeoffs with and without back pressure on the yoke and there is no change. It occurs at about 70 KIAS. It does not occur with other stock, small GA aircraft with tricycle gear like the C172 or Robin and does not occur with the Aviat Husky in the sim.

    Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks,

    RetiredMan93231R 1 Reply Last reply
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    • B Offline
      B Offline
      BernieV
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Use enough back pressure on the yoke to get the nose slightly off the ground around 60 knots. That seems to work around the problem pretty consistently for me.

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • P Offline
        P Offline
        Peto Toobe
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Thanks, BernieV. I will try it. Very helpful.

        1 Reply Last reply
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        • vedmerchantV Offline
          vedmerchantV Offline
          vedmerchant
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          I have experienced the same issue on my side as well. Will try out @BernieV 's solution. I don't recall if it happens at 60 knots or 70 but I roughly recall that it doesn't happen if I am using flaps.

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          • P Peto Toobe

            I have been having a persistent issue with the Arrow. In order to troubleshoot I just reinstalled a fresh version of PA-28R, v0.9.0 and checked my rudder pedal function/ calibration.

            I am experiencing a persistent jerk or abrupt swerve to the left just before takeoff. I have tried takeoffs with and without back pressure on the yoke and there is no change. It occurs at about 70 KIAS. It does not occur with other stock, small GA aircraft with tricycle gear like the C172 or Robin and does not occur with the Aviat Husky in the sim.

            Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks,

            RetiredMan93231R Offline
            RetiredMan93231R Offline
            RetiredMan93231
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            @peto-toobe Try this simple modification to the flight_model.cfg file...

            [CONTACT_POINTS]
            min_castering_angle = 0 ;0.05236 ; Defines the minimum angle a free castering wheel can take (in radians).
            max_castering_angle = 0 ;3.14159265358979 ; Defines the maximum angle a free castering wheel can take (in radians).

            B 2 Replies Last reply
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            • RetiredMan93231R RetiredMan93231

              @peto-toobe Try this simple modification to the flight_model.cfg file...

              [CONTACT_POINTS]
              min_castering_angle = 0 ;0.05236 ; Defines the minimum angle a free castering wheel can take (in radians).
              max_castering_angle = 0 ;3.14159265358979 ; Defines the maximum angle a free castering wheel can take (in radians).

              B Offline
              B Offline
              BernieV
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              @retiredman93231 I'll have to give that a try. Thanks for the tip. It is probably worth noting that the Arrow's front wheel is not free casting.

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              • B BernieV

                @retiredman93231 I'll have to give that a try. Thanks for the tip. It is probably worth noting that the Arrow's front wheel is not free casting.

                D Offline
                D Offline
                Delta558
                Developer
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                @berniev Yes, we know - As I said in an email to RetiredMan, I actally looked at it a while back but my head was in P3D at the time and in that sim the steering / free castoring is entirely dealt with in the Contact Points steering angle, and angle other than 180 means no free-castoring at all.

                The extra lines seem to override that, in a similar manner to a fixed-undercarriage aircraft I was working on which kept sinking on landing as if there was no gear. After a lot of testing, I found that the sim's inbuilt Aircraft Editor, if used at all, was automatically overwriting the 0.0 in extension and retraction times with a default value of 3 seconds and that was enough to convince the sim that the gear was retractable, so once you got above a certain speed it would either retract or fail (still not sure which).

                This sim is still throwing up anomalies!

                Just Flight FDE developer

                B 1 Reply Last reply
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                • D Delta558

                  @berniev Yes, we know - As I said in an email to RetiredMan, I actally looked at it a while back but my head was in P3D at the time and in that sim the steering / free castoring is entirely dealt with in the Contact Points steering angle, and angle other than 180 means no free-castoring at all.

                  The extra lines seem to override that, in a similar manner to a fixed-undercarriage aircraft I was working on which kept sinking on landing as if there was no gear. After a lot of testing, I found that the sim's inbuilt Aircraft Editor, if used at all, was automatically overwriting the 0.0 in extension and retraction times with a default value of 3 seconds and that was enough to convince the sim that the gear was retractable, so once you got above a certain speed it would either retract or fail (still not sure which).

                  This sim is still throwing up anomalies!

                  B Offline
                  B Offline
                  BernieV
                  wrote on last edited by BernieV
                  #8

                  @delta558 Thanks for taking the time to explain. For what its worth, from memory, the maximum steering angle of the Arrow is +/- 20 degrees.

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • RetiredMan93231R RetiredMan93231

                    @peto-toobe Try this simple modification to the flight_model.cfg file...

                    [CONTACT_POINTS]
                    min_castering_angle = 0 ;0.05236 ; Defines the minimum angle a free castering wheel can take (in radians).
                    max_castering_angle = 0 ;3.14159265358979 ; Defines the maximum angle a free castering wheel can take (in radians).

                    B Offline
                    B Offline
                    BernieV
                    wrote on last edited by BernieV
                    #9

                    @retiredman93231 I guess this setting helps. I was able to takeoff without lurching with crosswinds at 17 kts 90 degrees from the left and from the right, although there was more a tendency to weathervane into the wind when the cross wind was from the right. I even tried 30 knot crosswinds and it really didn't feel much different than 17. In real life that would have been a harrowing experience 🙂

                    I was hoping that improvements to adverse yaw modeling might help better simulate the effects of aileron deflection during the takeoff rolls, but unlike real life, aileron deflection doesn't seem to have much impact on countering weathervaning during takeoff with a crosswind in this or prior versions of MSFS.

                    D 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • B BernieV

                      @retiredman93231 I guess this setting helps. I was able to takeoff without lurching with crosswinds at 17 kts 90 degrees from the left and from the right, although there was more a tendency to weathervane into the wind when the cross wind was from the right. I even tried 30 knot crosswinds and it really didn't feel much different than 17. In real life that would have been a harrowing experience 🙂

                      I was hoping that improvements to adverse yaw modeling might help better simulate the effects of aileron deflection during the takeoff rolls, but unlike real life, aileron deflection doesn't seem to have much impact on countering weathervaning during takeoff with a crosswind in this or prior versions of MSFS.

                      D Offline
                      D Offline
                      dsweingard
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      @berniev Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but is this weathervaning issue a planned feature (for some sort of accuracy of flight model reason) or is it a bug with the way the JF Arrows interact with the ground in MSFS? Either way, it makes my most favorite plane pretty much not usable. Ive tried all the things (except hacking the config file above), using 5 degrees of rudder trim counter to the cross, using only 30 manifold pressure in takeoff, with mixed results. If this is not something JF intended, I really wish they would fix this.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • B BernieV

                        @retiredman93231 I'll have to give that a try. Thanks for the tip. It is probably worth noting that the Arrow's front wheel is not free casting.

                        S Offline
                        S Offline
                        Sender46
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11
                        This post is deleted!
                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • F Offline
                          F Offline
                          Fynus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Still having tremendous issues when taking off with crosswind. Currently its unflyable with this bug.

                          DerekD 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • F Fynus

                            Still having tremendous issues when taking off with crosswind. Currently its unflyable with this bug.

                            DerekD Offline
                            DerekD Offline
                            Derek
                            JF Staff
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            @fynus Have you been in touch with JF support?

                            F 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • DerekD Derek

                              @fynus Have you been in touch with JF support?

                              F Offline
                              F Offline
                              Fynus
                              wrote on last edited by Fynus
                              #14

                              @derek Yes I am 🙂

                              1 Reply Last reply
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                              • T Offline
                                T Offline
                                theissondergaard
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                I also have this issue. Are we waiting for an update since SU5, or was it like this before that update as well?
                                I'' try the values suggested by @RetiredMan93231 , but feels odd to be needing to change config files in order to perform a normal takeoff....

                                DerekD 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • T theissondergaard

                                  I also have this issue. Are we waiting for an update since SU5, or was it like this before that update as well?
                                  I'' try the values suggested by @RetiredMan93231 , but feels odd to be needing to change config files in order to perform a normal takeoff....

                                  DerekD Offline
                                  DerekD Offline
                                  Derek
                                  JF Staff
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  @theissondergaard Have you been in touch with JF support?

                                  G 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • DerekD Derek

                                    @theissondergaard Have you been in touch with JF support?

                                    G Offline
                                    G Offline
                                    Gabe777
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    @derek

                                    Any point in these forums ?

                                    If it's "Contact Support" directly every time ?

                                    N 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • G Gabe777

                                      @derek

                                      Any point in these forums ?

                                      If it's "Contact Support" directly every time ?

                                      N Offline
                                      N Offline
                                      N293WK
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      @gabe777 The forums are more for us users to ask questions to each other and share stuff. But if you contact support an actual ticket is created so they can track it. I don't think all the developers even look at the forums.

                                      As someone who works in software development, if there's no ticket for something it's probably not getting done, because you'll just forget.

                                      G 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • N N293WK

                                        @gabe777 The forums are more for us users to ask questions to each other and share stuff. But if you contact support an actual ticket is created so they can track it. I don't think all the developers even look at the forums.

                                        As someone who works in software development, if there's no ticket for something it's probably not getting done, because you'll just forget.

                                        G Offline
                                        G Offline
                                        Gabe777
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        @vcapra1

                                        ... I've heard this argument before. Problem is, no-one gets the benefit of the solution... should there be one.

                                        People never go to FAQ pages. We like forums.

                                        DerekD 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • G Gabe777

                                          @vcapra1

                                          ... I've heard this argument before. Problem is, no-one gets the benefit of the solution... should there be one.

                                          People never go to FAQ pages. We like forums.

                                          DerekD Offline
                                          DerekD Offline
                                          Derek
                                          JF Staff
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          @gabe777

                                          Unless the problem is specific to all users, then posting up any 'solution' is of marginal benefit at best and quite dangerous at worst. This thread is a perfect example - the first post here was from August and if every user needed to change the cfg files in order to take off, we would have had some pretty damning reviews by now.

                                          The point of the forum is not for support.

                                          https://community.justflight.com/topic/2/product-support

                                          G 1 Reply Last reply
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