Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators
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Trying to put it politely, in my opinion JF's reliance on a hidden clickspot and tooltips for NAV/GPS mode switching and indication is not at all in keeping with their otherwise commendable efforts to replicate realism in the Piper Arrow. I think it's a particularly unsatisfactory compromise. It's easy to click on the clickspot without realising that you have and not having any visual mode indication (other than unreal tooltips) can be a real PITA and spoil an otherwise enjoyable flight.
This is a link to the real world installation manual for the GPS 100:
http://retro-gps.info/Manuals/GarminManuals/files/Garmin%20GPS%20100AVD_Inst.pdfPage 21 confirms that when the GPS 100 is installed in a real aircraft, an additional remote switch (remote from the GPS 100) is fitted to switch between NAV mode and GPS mode (see pic below).
Page 21 also confirms that in addition to the remote switch, illuminated annunciators are fitted to control and indicate the status of the switch.
Page 28 shows a schematic of this (see pic below).
It is apparent that there is no particular switch or annunciator specified and no particular location specified, just that they should meet the stated criteria. So any design of switch and annunciators can be used in any suitable location, provided they meet the stated criteria. It therefore follows that in order to replicate these in the sim it would not be necessary to copy any particular real life switch or annunciators and any reasonable representation of them could be considered realistic.
Please can Just Flight give serious consideration to using the above information to replicate the real life installation with an appropriate switch and annunciators? (Ticket submitted)
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Trying to put it politely, in my opinion JF's reliance on a hidden clickspot and tooltips for NAV/GPS mode switching and indication is not at all in keeping with their otherwise commendable efforts to replicate realism in the Piper Arrow. I think it's a particularly unsatisfactory compromise. It's easy to click on the clickspot without realising that you have and not having any visual mode indication (other than unreal tooltips) can be a real PITA and spoil an otherwise enjoyable flight.
This is a link to the real world installation manual for the GPS 100:
http://retro-gps.info/Manuals/GarminManuals/files/Garmin%20GPS%20100AVD_Inst.pdfPage 21 confirms that when the GPS 100 is installed in a real aircraft, an additional remote switch (remote from the GPS 100) is fitted to switch between NAV mode and GPS mode (see pic below).
Page 21 also confirms that in addition to the remote switch, illuminated annunciators are fitted to control and indicate the status of the switch.
Page 28 shows a schematic of this (see pic below).
It is apparent that there is no particular switch or annunciator specified and no particular location specified, just that they should meet the stated criteria. So any design of switch and annunciators can be used in any suitable location, provided they meet the stated criteria. It therefore follows that in order to replicate these in the sim it would not be necessary to copy any particular real life switch or annunciators and any reasonable representation of them could be considered realistic.
Please can Just Flight give serious consideration to using the above information to replicate the real life installation with an appropriate switch and annunciators? (Ticket submitted)
@Sender46 Yes but... that would be a switch that would be there no matter what avionics you use... and if you have a, say GNS530, and i switch between GPS or VLOC on the unit, the switch would have to flip too. And that switch wouldn't even be there with a GNS530. What if i have a GNS430 too? Should the switch operate that one too?
I think the alternative is an even worse one. Not only is it not realistic, it breaks functionality.
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@Sender46 Yes but... that would be a switch that would be there no matter what avionics you use... and if you have a, say GNS530, and i switch between GPS or VLOC on the unit, the switch would have to flip too. And that switch wouldn't even be there with a GNS530. What if i have a GNS430 too? Should the switch operate that one too?
I think the alternative is an even worse one. Not only is it not realistic, it breaks functionality.
@Cristi-Neagu Perhaps I'm misreading what you said but, why can't the switch be there when the GPS100 is selected, but have no switch otherwise? Wouldn't that be the most realistic?
Whatever would be in the IRL aircraft with a GPS100 should be there in the sim when GPS100, and whatever would be in the IRL aircraft with a GNS530 should be there when the GNS530 is selected.
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@Cristi-Neagu Perhaps I'm misreading what you said but, why can't the switch be there when the GPS100 is selected, but have no switch otherwise? Wouldn't that be the most realistic?
Whatever would be in the IRL aircraft with a GPS100 should be there in the sim when GPS100, and whatever would be in the IRL aircraft with a GNS530 should be there when the GNS530 is selected.
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@Sender46 I know there have been comments on this hidden clickspot issue in posts by others in other threads, so for information here's the very quick response from Craig (cut and paste from e-mail):
"Unfortunately, this has been the way of the Arrow III since its original release some 3 years ago and we have kept in keeping with the aircraft that we original went to do our research on that did not have a GPS100 installed. We will not be able to go over to and have compromised as much as we can with this and have not had anyone else comment on this."
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Our cockpit is based 100% on the real world G-BGKU based at my flying club. That wasn't fitted with any GPS/NAV switch so we opted for a click spot rather than adding a fictitious switch somewhere, but can certainly look at adding one if reference photos are supplied.
Although we are keen to support different GPS units, there is a limit to how far we can go with customising the configurations for each, so it's unlikely that we'll be adding GPS/NAV switches that are unique to each GPS option.
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Our cockpit is based 100% on the real world G-BGKU based at my flying club. That wasn't fitted with any GPS/NAV switch so we opted for a click spot rather than adding a fictitious switch somewhere, but can certainly look at adding one if reference photos are supplied.
Although we are keen to support different GPS units, there is a limit to how far we can go with customising the configurations for each, so it's unlikely that we'll be adding GPS/NAV switches that are unique to each GPS option.
@Martyn Thank you for considering this. The thing is, this switch is not fictitious. It is a real life requirement when a GPS 100 is fitted, as stated in the Garmin installation manual.
See photo below of a PA-28 showing a real life example of a NAV/GPS switch fitted with a GPS 100:
(found here: https://aeroclassifieds.com/aircraft-for-sale/piper-pa28r-200-arrow-ii/)
It's not strictly as per the Garmin installation manual in terms of the annunciators but it is a real life example that serves the purpose of switching between NAV and GPS modes and obviously the position of the switch can be seen so that you know what mode you are in.
The exact wording of the labels would be the installer's choice, so they could be reduced to just NAV and GPS and still be realistic (if necessary to avoid possibly clashing with the existing CAUTION notice in your panel). The switch doesn't even have to be in exactly the same position because it would be fitted wherever each individual GPS 100 installer chose to fit it.
Hope this helps
P.S.
And it only needs to be shown for the GPS 100 option (so it won't spoil the realism for 430 and 530 users). -
Totally agree, and have previously asked for just that in the MSFS support forum.. with no response..
https://community.justflight.com/topic/2059/we-need-a-nav-gps-switch-for-the-arrow
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Totally agree, and have previously asked for just that in the MSFS support forum.. with no response..
https://community.justflight.com/topic/2059/we-need-a-nav-gps-switch-for-the-arrow
This post is deleted! -
Totally agree, and have previously asked for just that in the MSFS support forum.. with no response..
https://community.justflight.com/topic/2059/we-need-a-nav-gps-switch-for-the-arrow
@Bert-Pieke
Edit: As an alternative.. not the preferred option!If Just Flight were looking for a simple fix, they would tie the autopilot to the NAV1 radio, and not provide any means to change that. (In the G100 panel)
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Our cockpit is based 100% on the real world G-BGKU based at my flying club. That wasn't fitted with any GPS/NAV switch so we opted for a click spot rather than adding a fictitious switch somewhere, but can certainly look at adding one if reference photos are supplied.
Although we are keen to support different GPS units, there is a limit to how far we can go with customising the configurations for each, so it's unlikely that we'll be adding GPS/NAV switches that are unique to each GPS option.
This post is deleted! -
This post is deleted!
@Bert-Pieke said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
Martyn, just tie the NAV1 radio to the autopilot.
Full stop, no clickspot.First you totally agreed with my post, so I don't understand why you would then suggest this? That would be a pretty poor compromise
. It would remove the ability to use the GPS 100 to follow a course and would be unrealistic because the GPS 100 installation should include this switch. -
@Bert-Pieke said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
Martyn, just tie the NAV1 radio to the autopilot.
Full stop, no clickspot.First you totally agreed with my post, so I don't understand why you would then suggest this? That would be a pretty poor compromise
. It would remove the ability to use the GPS 100 to follow a course and would be unrealistic because the GPS 100 installation should include this switch.@Sender46 said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
@Bert-Pieke said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
Martyn, just tie the NAV1 radio to the autopilot.
Full stop, no clickspot.First you totally agreed with my post, so I don't understand why you would then suggest this? That would be a pretty poor compromise
. It would remove the ability to use the GPS 100 to follow a course and would be unrealistic because the GPS 100 installation should include this switch.IMHO, there are two ways to fix this:
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Add a designated NAV/GPS switch, as you suggest
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Untie the GPS from the autopilot and HSI
I agree that the first would be a better option, but Martyn seems determined to not add the switch (because he cannot find it in the real airplane?)
So, I am offering a second option which would be simpler to implement.
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Our cockpit is based 100% on the real world G-BGKU based at my flying club. That wasn't fitted with any GPS/NAV switch so we opted for a click spot rather than adding a fictitious switch somewhere, but can certainly look at adding one if reference photos are supplied.
Although we are keen to support different GPS units, there is a limit to how far we can go with customising the configurations for each, so it's unlikely that we'll be adding GPS/NAV switches that are unique to each GPS option.
@Bert Pieke You're obviously either not keeping up with all the posts, or maybe you are misunderstanding. See Martyn's post yesterday, which included this:
@Martyn said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
... but can certainly look at adding one if reference photos are supplied.
I have provided a reference photo of the switch in a real PA-28 as he requested (see my post replying to Martyn yesterday, which it appears you have also missed) and I have also provided it to Support.
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@Bert Pieke You're obviously either not keeping up with all the posts, or maybe you are misunderstanding. See Martyn's post yesterday, which included this:
@Martyn said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
... but can certainly look at adding one if reference photos are supplied.
I have provided a reference photo of the switch in a real PA-28 as he requested (see my post replying to Martyn yesterday, which it appears you have also missed) and I have also provided it to Support.
@Sender46 said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
@Bert Pieke You're obviously either not keeping up with all the posts, or maybe you are misunderstanding. See Martyn's post yesterday, which included this:
@Martyn said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
... but can certainly look at adding one if reference photos are supplied.
I have provided a reference photo of the switch in a real PA-28 as he requested (see my post replying to Martyn yesterday, which it appears you have also missed) and I have also provided it to Support.
OK, if they follow your suggestion, everyone will be happy!
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@Sender46 said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
@Bert Pieke You're obviously either not keeping up with all the posts, or maybe you are misunderstanding. See Martyn's post yesterday, which included this:
@Martyn said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
... but can certainly look at adding one if reference photos are supplied.
I have provided a reference photo of the switch in a real PA-28 as he requested (see my post replying to Martyn yesterday, which it appears you have also missed) and I have also provided it to Support.
OK, if they follow your suggestion, everyone will be happy!
@Bert-Pieke said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
OK, if they follow your suggestion, everyone will be happy!
Fingers crossed
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@Martyn That is a nice switch, but it is only required in the GPS100 panel..
I hope the screenshot is a teaser only, for seeing the switch in GPS mode and the GTN in VLOC mode, would not be a good combination..
Having said that, I do like the filler panel where the GPS100 used to be! -
@Martyn That is a nice switch, but it is only required in the GPS100 panel..
I hope the screenshot is a teaser only, for seeing the switch in GPS mode and the GTN in VLOC mode, would not be a good combination..
Having said that, I do like the filler panel where the GPS100 used to be!@Bert-Pieke said in Real Life NAV/GPS Mode Switch and Annunciators:
@Martyn That is a nice switch, but it is only required in the GPS100 panel..
I hope the screenshot is a teaser only, for seeing the switch in GPS mode and the GTN in VLOC mode, would not be a good combination..I don't think that's necessarily unrealistic, so it's not an issue at all for me. If a real aircraft was upgraded from a GPS 100 to a GTN 750, the NAV/GPS switch would already have been there and could have just been left there and be unused. Having an unused switch there doesn't cause any problem with the operation of the aircraft or the GTN 750. And the switch is quite subtle and unobtrusive the way JF have added it anyway.
Why make it more difficult than it needs to be when we now have what is in my opinion a good solution?
