First impressions from a 1000+ hour Caravan driver.
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Very nice insights! Thank you!
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Okay, first impressions right off the bat, it's my first flight with it... It's also been a while since I've flown a 675-hp version of it, but here we go.
I'm flying the amphib from CYTZ to a Lake Muskoka, something I used to do a LOT.
First impressions, it's a big airplane on floats, and it looks it. Took all the plugs out, covers off, etc. No visible cables for the water rudders, that's a bit of a disappointment on a plane like this. No ropes on the floats either, we always had them secured to the float with a tension spring, I'll see if I have pictures somewhere. No way you'd ever be flying a seaplane without ropes on it!
I'm using the GNS530/430 setup with the KAP 140 AP, something I used plenty IRL.
Fuel tanks on, master on, fuel pump ON (not NORM) for start. Prop in feather, Starter on, and I added fuel at 8% Ng to see what would happen. ITT started to swing hard over 800 degrees, so fuel cutoff and starter to MOTOR. That seemed to be realistic. Let it cool for 30 seconds, then started again, this time adding fuel at 12% Ng, which is where I'd usually do it. Starter seems a bit slow, and ITT spiked over 800 degrees, which it wouldn't at that point. 12% is plenty for a cool start. Also, IIRC correctly, you shouldn't have to trip the generator on after a start, it should just be on. Standby power seems to be on a but too much while the engine is at idle. I rarely saw that, even with pitot heats on. Just a note. Turned the bleed air on, since it's 4C in Toronto for some cabin heat, which is nice. Adjusted the dial to get it nice and warm.
Flaps 10, and taxied over to runway 26 for the left turn out departure at 1000 feet, obviously on the amphib the rudder pedals do nothing IRL to steer, it's differential braking but I appreciate the ease of it all in the sim.
Applied takeoff power in Low Idle, and it wouldn't even come close to it. IRL, this wouldn't matter, above a certain power lever angle, it swaps to high idle regardless of the condition lever position. Reset it to high idle, and took off. I'll excuse the twitchiness to my controls, they're definitely not setup for it yet. The Caravan is anything but twitchy. Rotation felt fine, the amphib is a shopping cart. Gear up immediately, and then a left turn out from the airport, retracting flaps, etc. Speeds all look good, that sort of thing.
Heading up to Muskoka at 4500 feet now, tried the side air vents to see how loud they are. If anything, they should be even LOUDER. They are insanely loud at speed, and I never, ever, used them.
I loaded up the generator to over 90 amps with lighting and anti-icing, and then tripped it to see if the Standby alternator would take the load. It did. Problem is, at 90 amps, it's massively overloaded and would pop all sorts of circuit breakers. It's rated for 75 amps, IIRC. Also, on the amphib, the Windshield Heat would do nothing, since there's no icing plate on it. Maybe something to be added in? Also turned off one tank to balance the fuel, which is the bane of a Caravan driver everywhere. Very well done here. I turned off the OTHER tank as well, to see what would happen. The engine died, immediately. That's wrong. If you turn both tanks off, you get the master warning beeper and have around 30 seconds of fuel in the feeder tank before the engine dies. Every Caravan driver I know has accidentally turned off both tanks at some point.
Set up for landing on the water in Muskoka, going to Flap 10 needed a big trim change, which is realistic for sure. Flaps 20/30 should probably need a bit more. Landing on the water is fine, the water physics suck in every sim and it's no different here. Coming off the step was pretty janky, but I'll chock that up to MSFS. Taxied around for a bit on the water and it felt fine.
Went to shut down the engine, and there's no pitch locks! Any seaplane would almost assuredly have pitch locks to keep the prop in fine instead of allowing it to feather. The way you do this is to have the prop/engine in beta when you shut down and then pull the power lever into reverse when you cut the fuel. It engages the pitch locks and keeps the prop in fine pitch. The biggest reason for doing this on the water is so you have immediate control over the engine when you start it back up. No waiting for it to come out of feather. That's a bit disappointing, to be honest, it's a pretty essential part of water operations. It's also a way to damage the power lever if you try and push it forward before starting the engine, since it's physically unable to move forward. I didn't try and taxi with the prop in feather, it should move forward at about 3 knots or so due to engine exhaust.
Honestly, first impressions, not bad. I haven't tried any crosswinds, or icing, or anything. I'll maybe do a wheeled flight in Northern Alberta on my old medevac runs (shudder) and see how that one goes. I'll also try a bit harder to break it, and see how that goes. Starting with the plugs in, or the prop ties on was always funny to watch (hint, they get shredded.)
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@FishermanIvan Did you notice anything unusual about the turning tendencies of the BSQ C208B vs the real one?
@FishermanIvan Thank you so much for taking the time to write this all down. Luckily, I would say that 60-70% of what you have mentioned here is already fixed for the next version. This includes what @Buzz just mentioned about the left-turning tendency (fun fact on that one, this appears to be largely due to an undocumented change that causes dramatically different behavior in MSFS 2020 vs. 2024.) I hope you don't mind if I address only your remaining points that I haven't already fixed in the update that will be released tomorrow. Sorry, still many messages to get to every day!
I've had some notes that my ITT during start can be aggressive, but unfortunately, the MSFS engine simulation seems incapable of inducing a start anywhere below 10%, which would make it virtually impossible for a user to induce a hot-start, even if they wanted to. As a result, I have to compress the normal starting range into something like 14-18%, instead of 12-18%.
You'll see better standby generator behavior in the update. This was due to the fact that MSFS erroneously connects the generator to the propeller shaft in free turbine aircraft, rather than the accessory gearbox. I hadn't seen that problem since my King Air, but after some changes to the propeller aerodynamic model, you won't notice the difference anymore.
The condition lever limiting maximum power is also fixed in the next update. The fuel cutoff immediately affecting the engine instead of burning through the header tank first is another MSFS limitation. Not impossible to overcome, but any code that directly manipulates the user's ability to start the engine can be a little scary from the customer satisfaction perspective, as I'm sure you can imagine.
The heated windshield is a tricky one in MSFS. There is no way to deice a specific portion of a window, or even right and left windshields. In the Baron, I added the hot-plate, which users are able to remove if they didn't want their view obscured by a "black square" (forgive me). Regardless, the entire windshield will be deiced, which is unfortunate, because learning to land through a tiny square window is quite the experience in any airplane. I just decided to do something different with the Caravan, to assess which solution users liked more.
I am aware of the propeller locks for amphibious operations. This requires yet another patch on a patch on a patch to coerce the correct behavior out of the MSFS propeller simulation, but I will have to do this in spades for the Commander 690. I already have some ideas about how to do this, so I would expect this to be added to the Caravan in the future, along with an anchor for keeping station while on the water. I would also like to add a mooring feature to fix the rotation of the aircraft as well, but we're still debating the most user friendly way to implement this in another thread.
Again, thank you so much. It's the commentary and suggestions from dedicated users and fellow real world pilots that always help improve my aircraft the most. You know where to find me if you have any more suggestions. I apologize that I can't always address everything due to simulator limitations or just severely diminishing returns. I often like to post a quote about software development, but the gist is, "sometimes seemingly complex features can be implemented easily, while sometimes seemingly simple features are borderline impossible." Just the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. I hope you understand, and know that at the very least, I will never ignore any feature requests, and I always appreciate them! Thanks again.
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Thanks for getting back!
I hope they don't come across as unfair criticisms, and you're obviously bound by what you can accomplish in the game here, but I just wanted to post up my RW experience with what I saw today.
It's very, very well done, and it's fun to fly! I'll probably take it out to Hawaii next week when I'm off work and home for a month.
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Thanks for getting back!
I hope they don't come across as unfair criticisms, and you're obviously bound by what you can accomplish in the game here, but I just wanted to post up my RW experience with what I saw today.
It's very, very well done, and it's fun to fly! I'll probably take it out to Hawaii next week when I'm off work and home for a month.
@FishermanIvan So glad to hear you're enjoying it. I will admit, sometimes I do receive "unreasonable" criticism (in my eyes) from users who expect a turbine engine simulation to rival that of a nuclear powerplant for ~$50 USD, but your observations are very far from that
I only feel bad that I can't address everything in every aircraft to create a flawless simulation. I am, unfortunately, but one man who does everything from modeling, to avionics, aerodynamics, videos, and screenshots. I hope you will enjoy the update tomorrow! While the changelog is around three pages long, the biggest improvement is to the sounds, which I think add a lot to the feel of the aircraft. -
@FishermanIvan So glad to hear you're enjoying it. I will admit, sometimes I do receive "unreasonable" criticism (in my eyes) from users who expect a turbine engine simulation to rival that of a nuclear powerplant for ~$50 USD, but your observations are very far from that
I only feel bad that I can't address everything in every aircraft to create a flawless simulation. I am, unfortunately, but one man who does everything from modeling, to avionics, aerodynamics, videos, and screenshots. I hope you will enjoy the update tomorrow! While the changelog is around three pages long, the biggest improvement is to the sounds, which I think add a lot to the feel of the aircraft.@Black-Square Well the work is super appreciated from me, don't worry!
I'm off to fly the Starship into Palm Springs for some retro 80s glory.
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@Black-Square Well the work is super appreciated from me, don't worry!
I'm off to fly the Starship into Palm Springs for some retro 80s glory.
@FishermanIvan My absolute favorite. Please enjoy the Starship flights that I wish I had time for myself. Again, thank you for your thoughts. Always feel free to share my responses with anyone who is curious. I generally only respond to queries here, in an effort to keep all the information centralized and searchable. I consider your enjoyment of my aircraft to be high praise! Thanks again, and have a great Starship flight!
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Thank you so much for this aircraft. So fun to fly and looking forward to the update. One question on the windshield de-icing. I had ice on the windshield today while flying at 14,000 ft. Is it normal for the icing to instantly dissipate with the switch is enabled? Seems like IRL it would take some time to dissipate.
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Okay, first impressions right off the bat, it's my first flight with it... It's also been a while since I've flown a 675-hp version of it, but here we go.
I'm flying the amphib from CYTZ to a Lake Muskoka, something I used to do a LOT.
First impressions, it's a big airplane on floats, and it looks it. Took all the plugs out, covers off, etc. No visible cables for the water rudders, that's a bit of a disappointment on a plane like this. No ropes on the floats either, we always had them secured to the float with a tension spring, I'll see if I have pictures somewhere. No way you'd ever be flying a seaplane without ropes on it!
I'm using the GNS530/430 setup with the KAP 140 AP, something I used plenty IRL.
Fuel tanks on, master on, fuel pump ON (not NORM) for start. Prop in feather, Starter on, and I added fuel at 8% Ng to see what would happen. ITT started to swing hard over 800 degrees, so fuel cutoff and starter to MOTOR. That seemed to be realistic. Let it cool for 30 seconds, then started again, this time adding fuel at 12% Ng, which is where I'd usually do it. Starter seems a bit slow, and ITT spiked over 800 degrees, which it wouldn't at that point. 12% is plenty for a cool start. Also, IIRC correctly, you shouldn't have to trip the generator on after a start, it should just be on. Standby power seems to be on a but too much while the engine is at idle. I rarely saw that, even with pitot heats on. Just a note. Turned the bleed air on, since it's 4C in Toronto for some cabin heat, which is nice. Adjusted the dial to get it nice and warm.
Flaps 10, and taxied over to runway 26 for the left turn out departure at 1000 feet, obviously on the amphib the rudder pedals do nothing IRL to steer, it's differential braking but I appreciate the ease of it all in the sim.
Applied takeoff power in Low Idle, and it wouldn't even come close to it. IRL, this wouldn't matter, above a certain power lever angle, it swaps to high idle regardless of the condition lever position. Reset it to high idle, and took off. I'll excuse the twitchiness to my controls, they're definitely not setup for it yet. The Caravan is anything but twitchy. Rotation felt fine, the amphib is a shopping cart. Gear up immediately, and then a left turn out from the airport, retracting flaps, etc. Speeds all look good, that sort of thing.
Heading up to Muskoka at 4500 feet now, tried the side air vents to see how loud they are. If anything, they should be even LOUDER. They are insanely loud at speed, and I never, ever, used them.
I loaded up the generator to over 90 amps with lighting and anti-icing, and then tripped it to see if the Standby alternator would take the load. It did. Problem is, at 90 amps, it's massively overloaded and would pop all sorts of circuit breakers. It's rated for 75 amps, IIRC. Also, on the amphib, the Windshield Heat would do nothing, since there's no icing plate on it. Maybe something to be added in? Also turned off one tank to balance the fuel, which is the bane of a Caravan driver everywhere. Very well done here. I turned off the OTHER tank as well, to see what would happen. The engine died, immediately. That's wrong. If you turn both tanks off, you get the master warning beeper and have around 30 seconds of fuel in the feeder tank before the engine dies. Every Caravan driver I know has accidentally turned off both tanks at some point.
Set up for landing on the water in Muskoka, going to Flap 10 needed a big trim change, which is realistic for sure. Flaps 20/30 should probably need a bit more. Landing on the water is fine, the water physics suck in every sim and it's no different here. Coming off the step was pretty janky, but I'll chock that up to MSFS. Taxied around for a bit on the water and it felt fine.
Went to shut down the engine, and there's no pitch locks! Any seaplane would almost assuredly have pitch locks to keep the prop in fine instead of allowing it to feather. The way you do this is to have the prop/engine in beta when you shut down and then pull the power lever into reverse when you cut the fuel. It engages the pitch locks and keeps the prop in fine pitch. The biggest reason for doing this on the water is so you have immediate control over the engine when you start it back up. No waiting for it to come out of feather. That's a bit disappointing, to be honest, it's a pretty essential part of water operations. It's also a way to damage the power lever if you try and push it forward before starting the engine, since it's physically unable to move forward. I didn't try and taxi with the prop in feather, it should move forward at about 3 knots or so due to engine exhaust.
Honestly, first impressions, not bad. I haven't tried any crosswinds, or icing, or anything. I'll maybe do a wheeled flight in Northern Alberta on my old medevac runs (shudder) and see how that one goes. I'll also try a bit harder to break it, and see how that goes. Starting with the plugs in, or the prop ties on was always funny to watch (hint, they get shredded.)
@FishermanIvan Great write-up. Thanks for taking the time. I always appreciate how @Black-Square takes our feedback with grace.
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Nick, being one man army behind everything right from promos to final delivery, yet being humble and talented has always been an inspiration from me. I am 36 y/o and i believe Nick would be somewhere close as well. I got to know hes a one man team sometime back and then did a small research on this apsect since i was amazed at the popularity of realism and quality offered by Black Square vs the “legend” of just one man behind it all. And i must say, what i fathomed was something that inspires you to level up yourself in your day to day life. I can’t recall where but some testimonial of him mentioned he achieves more in 6months what an average person would in 6years. And that shows in his work. Speaking of MSFS simulator environment and corresponding aircraft realism, its really akin to mimicking mother nature digitally. This therefore makes us wonder in awe how great and complex the design of our universe is that we cannot fully replicate digitally. And that always leaves some void if we attempt to fully compare whats on our screen with whats out there
