Pitch "jerks"
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I was just pointed to this one and i shall copy my text from my post here too.
What frustrates me a lot here is that i spend over a week watching reviews on YT, etc, and nowehere did i see this mentioned (until now). Not even when i asked for bugs.
Since i generaly fly between 1000-2000ft it simply makes the plane nearly unflyable as the FM just feels broken over uneven ground. I am also quite sure it has to do with updrafts/ downdrafts from the ground geometry.It is honestly so bad that if i could i would ask for a refund if this isn't fixable, despite how amazing the module is otherwise. This is simply just absolutely broken where i do 90% of my flying.
Here is my post:
Hey all.
I am having issues where the plane behaves very erratic during flight over steep cliffs/mountain sides and hitting the turbulent rising air.
It seems to really kick the nose of the plane up and down in a lightning fast manner. So fast it nearly looks like stutters (which it isn't).It this a known bug and will it be fixed? Over very mountainous areas it is nearly headace inducing when it jumps up and down a lot.
When over water or smooth/roling landscape it flies absolutely beautifull.
@cgnoorloos I just bought this plane a couple of weeks ago and immediately noticed the same thing. It doesn't seem tied to ground geometry, just turbulence. The small pitch changes are so abrupt and jarring that I get a headache from it. None of the other planes I've flown in MSFS are like this. I'm not sure if it is the flight model (as if there is no angular momentum in the pitch direction) or something else. The other thing that I noticed is that elevator input results in extremely fast and precise pitch moments as well which doesn't feel right. I was really looking forward to this plane, but at this point I don't want to fly it. The fact that many people fly this model without complaint leads me to believe there is some other interaction or corruption involved. My purchase was through the marketplace for reference. I really hope the devs can crack this problem.
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@cgnoorloos Actually I think the flight model improvements were done in 0.10.2, because 0.10.3 was just a hotfix. In that case you probably already had the improvements that I was talking about
@n293wk Yeah had no change unfortunately. Quite a shame, i hope it gets fixed somehow.
Also weird that so few seem to have this issue since it is very noticable. -
@cgnoorloos I just bought this plane a couple of weeks ago and immediately noticed the same thing. It doesn't seem tied to ground geometry, just turbulence. The small pitch changes are so abrupt and jarring that I get a headache from it. None of the other planes I've flown in MSFS are like this. I'm not sure if it is the flight model (as if there is no angular momentum in the pitch direction) or something else. The other thing that I noticed is that elevator input results in extremely fast and precise pitch moments as well which doesn't feel right. I was really looking forward to this plane, but at this point I don't want to fly it. The fact that many people fly this model without complaint leads me to believe there is some other interaction or corruption involved. My purchase was through the marketplace for reference. I really hope the devs can crack this problem.
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@ajbarber Found this video which shows the jittering pitch changes. https://youtu.be/ZRU_ss4SW3I?t=1755
The video creator doesn't seem to notice or be bothered by it.@ajbarber said in Pitch "jerks":
@ajbarber Found this video which shows the jittering pitch changes. https://youtu.be/ZRU_ss4SW3I?t=1755
The video creator doesn't seem to notice or be bothered by it.Aye good one. Also those are pretty tame, when i flew the Turbo 3 over australia it was a lot more violent.
I am at a point now where i am going to have to park these amazing planes.
Not too happy since this has seemingly gotten a lot worse the last updates, or just because of the weather changes and there seemingly is little to nothing going on to fix this.These planes get a ton of praise, yet mine are near unflyiable in a lot of weather types
Edit: I will try to make a recording of the issue.
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@ajbarber said in Pitch "jerks":
@ajbarber Found this video which shows the jittering pitch changes. https://youtu.be/ZRU_ss4SW3I?t=1755
The video creator doesn't seem to notice or be bothered by it.Aye good one. Also those are pretty tame, when i flew the Turbo 3 over australia it was a lot more violent.
I am at a point now where i am going to have to park these amazing planes.
Not too happy since this has seemingly gotten a lot worse the last updates, or just because of the weather changes and there seemingly is little to nothing going on to fix this.These planes get a ton of praise, yet mine are near unflyiable in a lot of weather types
Edit: I will try to make a recording of the issue.
Here is a recording. It starts at around 0:35sec. Here it still is very mild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e89_pzyKQMAnd here, starts at just after 1:40, again a mild case but this was just random flight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8wi4hEaNjsEdit: I know this is the Turbo but the regular one does have the same issue for me. Wil edit in a link to a video in a bit.
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Here is a recording. It starts at around 0:35sec. Here it still is very mild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e89_pzyKQMAnd here, starts at just after 1:40, again a mild case but this was just random flight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8wi4hEaNjsEdit: I know this is the Turbo but the regular one does have the same issue for me. Wil edit in a link to a video in a bit.
@cgnoorloos The amount of turbulence and bouncing in these videos looks quite realistic and normal to me.... In both videos the aircraft does not begin to bounce until you fly over the hills, and in the second video the vertical speed also increases significantly, indicating that you are in a strong updraft. It should also be noted that Asobo increased the level of thermal updrafts and turbulence in SU9, as indicated below...
https://devsupport.flightsimulator.com/questions/6853/su9-flight-model-changes-excessive-turbulence-and.html
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@cgnoorloos The amount of turbulence and bouncing in these videos looks quite realistic and normal to me.... In both videos the aircraft does not begin to bounce until you fly over the hills, and in the second video the vertical speed also increases significantly, indicating that you are in a strong updraft. It should also be noted that Asobo increased the level of thermal updrafts and turbulence in SU9, as indicated below...
https://devsupport.flightsimulator.com/questions/6853/su9-flight-model-changes-excessive-turbulence-and.html
Yes, these were very calm, have found a spot that shows it better. Did a lap in both planes. Also should note, this happens only in the Arrows. Not the Kodiak, Islander, Corsair, or any of the stock planes.
Arrow 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmEyon4PNFwTurbo Arrow 3 This one bounces a LOT more. Look at .1:40 And where i flew yesterday it bounced even more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTl7Y-fPSfE -
Yes, these were very calm, have found a spot that shows it better. Did a lap in both planes. Also should note, this happens only in the Arrows. Not the Kodiak, Islander, Corsair, or any of the stock planes.
Arrow 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmEyon4PNFwTurbo Arrow 3 This one bounces a LOT more. Look at .1:40 And where i flew yesterday it bounced even more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTl7Y-fPSfE@cgnoorloos The Turbo arrow has a max weight of 2900 lbs., while the Kodiak weighs 7200 lbs., the Islander is about 6600 lbs. and the Corsair has a max weight of over 14000 lbs... Any aircraft that weighs 2 or 3 times more than the Arrow is going to be much less susceptible to turbulence.
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@cgnoorloos The Turbo arrow has a max weight of 2900 lbs., while the Kodiak weighs 7200 lbs., the Islander is about 6600 lbs. and the Corsair has a max weight of over 14000 lbs... Any aircraft that weighs 2 or 3 times more than the Arrow is going to be much less susceptible to turbulence.
@retiredman93231 I get there is turbulence and that there are different weights. But watch that last video of the Turbo Arrow i linked in its full duration please. Sorry but that is not how it should behave. It is not being tossed up/down, it is changing pitch in like a blink, there is no feel of weight transfer either. Had that flown like that IRL it would be rather bad for both plane and occupants.
Note that this has been since i bought the planes. This is not new after SU9, but it has increased.
Edit: Also here, again watch the Turbo from 0:35 and 01:40. Don't tell me that is realistic motion.
Stock 152:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms8Gxhv-v_ATurbo Arrow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTl7Y-fPSfEEdit 2:
This is what Turbulence looks like, not there it not even a hint of that jittery pitch behavior like what happens in MFS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjwE20T9p3A -
@retiredman93231 I get there is turbulence and that there are different weights. But watch that last video of the Turbo Arrow i linked in its full duration please. Sorry but that is not how it should behave. It is not being tossed up/down, it is changing pitch in like a blink, there is no feel of weight transfer either. Had that flown like that IRL it would be rather bad for both plane and occupants.
Note that this has been since i bought the planes. This is not new after SU9, but it has increased.
Edit: Also here, again watch the Turbo from 0:35 and 01:40. Don't tell me that is realistic motion.
Stock 152:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms8Gxhv-v_ATurbo Arrow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTl7Y-fPSfEEdit 2:
This is what Turbulence looks like, not there it not even a hint of that jittery pitch behavior like what happens in MFS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjwE20T9p3A@cgnoorloos I recommend trying a comparison flight between the Turbo Arrow III and the Bonanza G36, which are more similar in size, configuration and weight.
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@cgnoorloos I recommend trying a comparison flight between the Turbo Arrow III and the Bonanza G36, which are more similar in size, configuration and weight.
@retiredman93231 I have flown the Bonanza, that one doesn't do it either. Did you even watch that Turbo Arrow clip i linked?
Please stop downplaying this as a "This is how it should be", because it is not. You cannot tell me you fly with that and think it is fine. If you do not have an issue with it kudos for you but i do and i need it fixed. -
@retiredman93231 I have flown the Bonanza, that one doesn't do it either. Did you even watch that Turbo Arrow clip i linked?
Please stop downplaying this as a "This is how it should be", because it is not. You cannot tell me you fly with that and think it is fine. If you do not have an issue with it kudos for you but i do and i need it fixed.@cgnoorloos of course you are right, from day one Arrow had problems with this. The last plane update made it much better. Unfortunately, as it was mentioned earlier, the changes to the thermals in FS SU9 are so strong that the Warrior currently performs the best from the Piper's family.
I fly quite a lot in RL and of course there are thermal and wear effects, but not to the extreme extent as it is after the SU9 update. Currently, I suggest you set the weather for either early morning or late evening. Only at these times is it possible to somehow fly.
On average, developers at this stage can do anything before the Asobo patch to improve the thermals. A new flight model has been introduced in the SU9 that developers could also consider introducing into the Arrow line in near future.
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@cgnoorloos of course you are right, from day one Arrow had problems with this. The last plane update made it much better. Unfortunately, as it was mentioned earlier, the changes to the thermals in FS SU9 are so strong that the Warrior currently performs the best from the Piper's family.
I fly quite a lot in RL and of course there are thermal and wear effects, but not to the extreme extent as it is after the SU9 update. Currently, I suggest you set the weather for either early morning or late evening. Only at these times is it possible to somehow fly.
On average, developers at this stage can do anything before the Asobo patch to improve the thermals. A new flight model has been introduced in the SU9 that developers could also consider introducing into the Arrow line in near future.
@sebastianr Sure they can do something? Since the Arrow 3 has much less then the Turbo version. I hope the prop model will help.
But i cannot understand that this is not a more reported issue. Specialy the Turbo can be a lot more jittery then the last one i linked, and a whole lot. Will try and capture that when it happens.I have been looking at the Warrior 2 for some time, but i don't dare to drop 45euro on that and maybe have the same issue.
I just hope it gets fixed, it is frustrating like hell. Not just for the money spent, but when they work they are simply well and above any other GA i own. They are just fabulous when not jittering around.
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@sebastianr Sure they can do something? Since the Arrow 3 has much less then the Turbo version. I hope the prop model will help.
But i cannot understand that this is not a more reported issue. Specialy the Turbo can be a lot more jittery then the last one i linked, and a whole lot. Will try and capture that when it happens.I have been looking at the Warrior 2 for some time, but i don't dare to drop 45euro on that and maybe have the same issue.
I just hope it gets fixed, it is frustrating like hell. Not just for the money spent, but when they work they are simply well and above any other GA i own. They are just fabulous when not jittering around.
The way the arrow jumps around in zero time feels like how they used to film car scenes in old movies with a screen behind the car prop. It just doesn't look realistic and breaks the immersion.
https://youtu.be/RO88NI16g84?t=36The pitching moment on the turbo arrow also seems super sensitive. The slightest change in power seems to cause a pretty instant change in pitch and I find a stabilized approach is much harder than the 172. I don't know if that is what it is like IRL.
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The way the arrow jumps around in zero time feels like how they used to film car scenes in old movies with a screen behind the car prop. It just doesn't look realistic and breaks the immersion.
https://youtu.be/RO88NI16g84?t=36The pitching moment on the turbo arrow also seems super sensitive. The slightest change in power seems to cause a pretty instant change in pitch and I find a stabilized approach is much harder than the 172. I don't know if that is what it is like IRL.
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Comparing this to other sims is absolutely pointless - different teams, different sim environment, there are bound to be differences even when we work from the same documentation!
Okay, a quick update for all - I noticed while using the force debugger in the sim that there is a near-constant switching between up and down force on the tailplane. It's in phase with all the videos posted, I think it may be the cause (or at least a part) of the problem. I have been looking at the new CFD entries and the fairly new prop physics. The latter without the former is probably pointless and the former is a WiP, but I thought I'd at least make a start. Curiously, the up/down force is magnified massively and gives a wild swing from about 30 degrees nose up to 30 degrees nose down. Only really starts over 100kts, but then gets very aggressive rather quickly.
It's going to take some time to work this out, I can reproduce it with a warbird at a higher speed (but again, well below that aircraft's max speed) so there is definitely something odd going on.
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Comparing this to other sims is absolutely pointless - different teams, different sim environment, there are bound to be differences even when we work from the same documentation!
Okay, a quick update for all - I noticed while using the force debugger in the sim that there is a near-constant switching between up and down force on the tailplane. It's in phase with all the videos posted, I think it may be the cause (or at least a part) of the problem. I have been looking at the new CFD entries and the fairly new prop physics. The latter without the former is probably pointless and the former is a WiP, but I thought I'd at least make a start. Curiously, the up/down force is magnified massively and gives a wild swing from about 30 degrees nose up to 30 degrees nose down. Only really starts over 100kts, but then gets very aggressive rather quickly.
It's going to take some time to work this out, I can reproduce it with a warbird at a higher speed (but again, well below that aircraft's max speed) so there is definitely something odd going on.
@delta558 Thanks again.
I have not double checked this a 100% but if i am not mistaken, when at rhoughly the same speeds, the Turbo does it more agressive then the Arrow 3Not sure if this shows it okey as YT makes the video a bit slow. They both go to around 140kts IAS
Turbo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLyvzcX21D4
Regular
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWAs6xsZ8oYBtw something i noticed is that those pitch changes don't really alter the vertical speed a lot. Like sometimes when flying over a mountain the nose may doa single "jerk" up or down like 5-15 degrees and stay there and the VSI needle will hardly move. I learned to just try and ignore the visual pitch change when flying, else i would over correct for nothing.
So it seems to often be mostly a visual thing outside of normal turbulence bumps ofc, those will push the VSI up or down as expected. I will try and make a video of this that hopefully can show this way better then i can explain in text
Thanks again for looking into this, it is highly apreciated.
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Comparing this to other sims is absolutely pointless - different teams, different sim environment, there are bound to be differences even when we work from the same documentation!
Okay, a quick update for all - I noticed while using the force debugger in the sim that there is a near-constant switching between up and down force on the tailplane. It's in phase with all the videos posted, I think it may be the cause (or at least a part) of the problem. I have been looking at the new CFD entries and the fairly new prop physics. The latter without the former is probably pointless and the former is a WiP, but I thought I'd at least make a start. Curiously, the up/down force is magnified massively and gives a wild swing from about 30 degrees nose up to 30 degrees nose down. Only really starts over 100kts, but then gets very aggressive rather quickly.
It's going to take some time to work this out, I can reproduce it with a warbird at a higher speed (but again, well below that aircraft's max speed) so there is definitely something odd going on.
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I have the exact same issue with both the Arrow and Turbo Arrow. @Martyn when can we expect an update fixing things for the pipers? It's been 3 months with no support for these products.
@pdd Read my post just a couple before yours. Here's a link to a video showing the effect in the forces debugger: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zXAvh6_mAiM3qNuK_stESPIBfOA36uQn/view?usp=sharing
That's gone to Asobo to see if they have any idea what is going on, as there is nothing which I can see that would cause such an effect. Two things to remember: 1) This game's flight model is NOT based in fundamental aerodynamics. It is a mixture of some aerodynamics, some shape-based and some attempts to fix problems caused by the first two. It does not make sense aerodynamically, nor in many respects in terms of geometry. 2) I asked a question directly regarding jet engines back in November on the support forum set up specifically for Devs to get answers to problems. That has still not been answered 6 months later along with several others but it leaves us totally guessing what to do.
When we have to start guessing, you may as well all join in because that's how daft this game's flight model has become - no info, very little support for Devs and it does not make sense on its own. Sorry about that, hopefully we'll hear back from them but until that point we really are stuck with a situation we find unreasonable ourselves.
