Pitch "jerks"
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I was just pointed to this one and i shall copy my text from my post here too.
What frustrates me a lot here is that i spend over a week watching reviews on YT, etc, and nowehere did i see this mentioned (until now). Not even when i asked for bugs.
Since i generaly fly between 1000-2000ft it simply makes the plane nearly unflyable as the FM just feels broken over uneven ground. I am also quite sure it has to do with updrafts/ downdrafts from the ground geometry.It is honestly so bad that if i could i would ask for a refund if this isn't fixable, despite how amazing the module is otherwise. This is simply just absolutely broken where i do 90% of my flying.
Here is my post:
Hey all.
I am having issues where the plane behaves very erratic during flight over steep cliffs/mountain sides and hitting the turbulent rising air.
It seems to really kick the nose of the plane up and down in a lightning fast manner. So fast it nearly looks like stutters (which it isn't).It this a known bug and will it be fixed? Over very mountainous areas it is nearly headace inducing when it jumps up and down a lot.
When over water or smooth/roling landscape it flies absolutely beautifull.
@cgnoorloos Did you try the mod recommended above...?
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@cgnoorloos Did you try the mod recommended above...?
@retiredman93231
I did not, since i use GAJ52 did not notice a difference. And i am curious as to what else changes when that is added?
I can try it tonight to see if it helps. -
@rene-feijen I don't think it is the turbulence in the air/wind, but the turbulence that comes from ground geometry.
@cgnoorloos Copy that.
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Yes ,I also confirm - "jerks" during flight and landing phase....
this really cuts all the goodies this Arrow give...
when this problem will be resolved by dew???
bdgs -
@gaj52 said in Pitch "jerks":
I thought this forum was part of Just Flight Support ?
No - there is a full support section on the website:
https://support.justflight.com/support/homehttps://support.justflight.com/support/solutions/folders/17000139071
https://support.justflight.com/support/tickets/new
https://community.justflight.com/topic/2/product-support
There has been loads of discussion on the forum among users about the Arrows and Warrior but if you've got a specific problem that needs logging it's always best to contact us direct.
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@gaj52 said in Pitch "jerks":
I thought this forum was part of Just Flight Support ?
No - there is a full support section on the website:
https://support.justflight.com/support/homehttps://support.justflight.com/support/solutions/folders/17000139071
https://support.justflight.com/support/tickets/new
https://community.justflight.com/topic/2/product-support
There has been loads of discussion on the forum among users about the Arrows and Warrior but if you've got a specific problem that needs logging it's always best to contact us direct.
@derek devs really know this issue and have only solution to make sure modern option have on. But this setting not resolve issue. Problems with jerks because of gusts we got from day 1 with all 3 product releases. Maybe it's simulator case but we need a solid statement from DEVS about it.
https://support.justflight.com/support/solutions/articles/17000118147-why-is-the-aircraft-behaving-erratically-after-take-off-
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@derek devs really know this issue and have only solution to make sure modern option have on. But this setting not resolve issue. Problems with jerks because of gusts we got from day 1 with all 3 product releases. Maybe it's simulator case but we need a solid statement from DEVS about it.
https://support.justflight.com/support/solutions/articles/17000118147-why-is-the-aircraft-behaving-erratically-after-take-off-
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@sebastianr We are the devs - it was developed by Just Flight. If you submit a support ticket it can be logged. The more reports we have of something, the more we can piece together causes and solutions.
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@derek +1 Just bought the bundle today, and first thing I noticed was how "jerky" it was on final (live weather, quite windy)... just terrible!
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@matthews if you submit a ticket via our Support section on the website we can look into it.
@derek I sent message with describe this case by support form, attached my videos and answer was that
" Currently, MSFS overexaggerates the wind gusts caused by the terrain, so when you're flying over hilly terrain, that could be part of the cause of the jerks you are seeing."
Nevertheless, we are planning to release updates to all the Pipers in the near future, and the developers will look into making refinements to the flight model, along with any possible improvements that may be possible with Sim Update 6.
Unfortunately at this time, I cannot give a firm timeframe on when these updates may release.
Kind Regards,
Mark
"Which is not entirely true. As every other plane, comparable to the modded DA40 and 62, copes perfectly well in the same conditions. Of course, turbulence, gusts of wind, lifting and lowering the nose of the plane must be felt, sometimes dynamic, unpredictable, fast, slow, different. But not giving the impression of broken half of the animation frames. The plane is not a pigeon that jerks its head on-off, left-right.
To sum up,
Your planes cannot adequately reflect the behavior in windy flight with gusts. The movements of the plane are artificial and false.
In fact, this topic is already tiring. After all, you can run a modded version of DA-40 or even Cessne and then switch to any version of Piper. It's probably high time to look at it from scratch, because Pipers currently can only fly with CAVOK.Wideos:
from April:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zf0rFlkXaU&ab_channel=asmrudnickilast time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHUEk4kNSeM&ab_channel=asmrudnickiHope you will prioritize this case. Thank you!
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@derek I sent message with describe this case by support form, attached my videos and answer was that
" Currently, MSFS overexaggerates the wind gusts caused by the terrain, so when you're flying over hilly terrain, that could be part of the cause of the jerks you are seeing."
Nevertheless, we are planning to release updates to all the Pipers in the near future, and the developers will look into making refinements to the flight model, along with any possible improvements that may be possible with Sim Update 6.
Unfortunately at this time, I cannot give a firm timeframe on when these updates may release.
Kind Regards,
Mark
"Which is not entirely true. As every other plane, comparable to the modded DA40 and 62, copes perfectly well in the same conditions. Of course, turbulence, gusts of wind, lifting and lowering the nose of the plane must be felt, sometimes dynamic, unpredictable, fast, slow, different. But not giving the impression of broken half of the animation frames. The plane is not a pigeon that jerks its head on-off, left-right.
To sum up,
Your planes cannot adequately reflect the behavior in windy flight with gusts. The movements of the plane are artificial and false.
In fact, this topic is already tiring. After all, you can run a modded version of DA-40 or even Cessne and then switch to any version of Piper. It's probably high time to look at it from scratch, because Pipers currently can only fly with CAVOK.Wideos:
from April:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zf0rFlkXaU&ab_channel=asmrudnickilast time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHUEk4kNSeM&ab_channel=asmrudnickiHope you will prioritize this case. Thank you!
@sebastianr Changes have already been made behind the scenes which should make the next update and will hopefully fix this for all - it has had success when tested internally.
In terms of your request for a complete rebuild of the flight dynamics, simply no. When the aircraft was first released, the response was very favourable. It was notably different to the default GA aircraft and the feel was described as being very realistic; this in part was due to the way the flight model was built with a focus on realism which necessitated straying quite considerably from Asobo's default aircraft and the way they had been built. Bear in mind, this is still a big learning curve for us all and we still do not have a stable core flight model - every sim update so far has resulted in the need for adjustments to 3rd party flight models. We are constantly chasing our tails and are only now beginning to get useful information in the SDK.
Personally, I find far worse weather-related flying characteristics in all the default aircraft (ever notice the almost hammer blow style yaw changes with wind?
I have never seen anything like that in the real world).
The PA28 series will NOT be made to fly like the default aircraft just to deal with one area of the flight envelope. There is too much fundamentally wrong with the sim, combined with the aforementioned lack of stability to even entertain that idea.I hope the upcoming update will fix the aircraft suitably for you, because I really want people to enjoy the aircraft. If, after all that, you find it still unflyable then please get back in touch with our support team and I'm sure they will sort you out.
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@sebastianr Changes have already been made behind the scenes which should make the next update and will hopefully fix this for all - it has had success when tested internally.
In terms of your request for a complete rebuild of the flight dynamics, simply no. When the aircraft was first released, the response was very favourable. It was notably different to the default GA aircraft and the feel was described as being very realistic; this in part was due to the way the flight model was built with a focus on realism which necessitated straying quite considerably from Asobo's default aircraft and the way they had been built. Bear in mind, this is still a big learning curve for us all and we still do not have a stable core flight model - every sim update so far has resulted in the need for adjustments to 3rd party flight models. We are constantly chasing our tails and are only now beginning to get useful information in the SDK.
Personally, I find far worse weather-related flying characteristics in all the default aircraft (ever notice the almost hammer blow style yaw changes with wind?
I have never seen anything like that in the real world).
The PA28 series will NOT be made to fly like the default aircraft just to deal with one area of the flight envelope. There is too much fundamentally wrong with the sim, combined with the aforementioned lack of stability to even entertain that idea.I hope the upcoming update will fix the aircraft suitably for you, because I really want people to enjoy the aircraft. If, after all that, you find it still unflyable then please get back in touch with our support team and I'm sure they will sort you out.
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@sebastianr Changes have already been made behind the scenes which should make the next update and will hopefully fix this for all - it has had success when tested internally.
In terms of your request for a complete rebuild of the flight dynamics, simply no. When the aircraft was first released, the response was very favourable. It was notably different to the default GA aircraft and the feel was described as being very realistic; this in part was due to the way the flight model was built with a focus on realism which necessitated straying quite considerably from Asobo's default aircraft and the way they had been built. Bear in mind, this is still a big learning curve for us all and we still do not have a stable core flight model - every sim update so far has resulted in the need for adjustments to 3rd party flight models. We are constantly chasing our tails and are only now beginning to get useful information in the SDK.
Personally, I find far worse weather-related flying characteristics in all the default aircraft (ever notice the almost hammer blow style yaw changes with wind?
I have never seen anything like that in the real world).
The PA28 series will NOT be made to fly like the default aircraft just to deal with one area of the flight envelope. There is too much fundamentally wrong with the sim, combined with the aforementioned lack of stability to even entertain that idea.I hope the upcoming update will fix the aircraft suitably for you, because I really want people to enjoy the aircraft. If, after all that, you find it still unflyable then please get back in touch with our support team and I'm sure they will sort you out.
@delta558 Great respons! Hope the fix arrives on short notice. Regards, René
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@sebastianr Changes have already been made behind the scenes which should make the next update and will hopefully fix this for all - it has had success when tested internally.
In terms of your request for a complete rebuild of the flight dynamics, simply no. When the aircraft was first released, the response was very favourable. It was notably different to the default GA aircraft and the feel was described as being very realistic; this in part was due to the way the flight model was built with a focus on realism which necessitated straying quite considerably from Asobo's default aircraft and the way they had been built. Bear in mind, this is still a big learning curve for us all and we still do not have a stable core flight model - every sim update so far has resulted in the need for adjustments to 3rd party flight models. We are constantly chasing our tails and are only now beginning to get useful information in the SDK.
Personally, I find far worse weather-related flying characteristics in all the default aircraft (ever notice the almost hammer blow style yaw changes with wind?
I have never seen anything like that in the real world).
The PA28 series will NOT be made to fly like the default aircraft just to deal with one area of the flight envelope. There is too much fundamentally wrong with the sim, combined with the aforementioned lack of stability to even entertain that idea.I hope the upcoming update will fix the aircraft suitably for you, because I really want people to enjoy the aircraft. If, after all that, you find it still unflyable then please get back in touch with our support team and I'm sure they will sort you out.
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@derek I sent message with describe this case by support form, attached my videos and answer was that
" Currently, MSFS overexaggerates the wind gusts caused by the terrain, so when you're flying over hilly terrain, that could be part of the cause of the jerks you are seeing."
Nevertheless, we are planning to release updates to all the Pipers in the near future, and the developers will look into making refinements to the flight model, along with any possible improvements that may be possible with Sim Update 6.
Unfortunately at this time, I cannot give a firm timeframe on when these updates may release.
Kind Regards,
Mark
"Which is not entirely true. As every other plane, comparable to the modded DA40 and 62, copes perfectly well in the same conditions. Of course, turbulence, gusts of wind, lifting and lowering the nose of the plane must be felt, sometimes dynamic, unpredictable, fast, slow, different. But not giving the impression of broken half of the animation frames. The plane is not a pigeon that jerks its head on-off, left-right.
To sum up,
Your planes cannot adequately reflect the behavior in windy flight with gusts. The movements of the plane are artificial and false.
In fact, this topic is already tiring. After all, you can run a modded version of DA-40 or even Cessne and then switch to any version of Piper. It's probably high time to look at it from scratch, because Pipers currently can only fly with CAVOK.Wideos:
from April:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zf0rFlkXaU&ab_channel=asmrudnickilast time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHUEk4kNSeM&ab_channel=asmrudnickiHope you will prioritize this case. Thank you!
@sebastianr Your videos show exactly what I experience... jerky and stuttering motion in the pitch axis in windy conditions.
It's a real shame the Arrows experiece this and frankly it's a total immersion breaker. Does it happen with the Warrior also? I was going to buy the Warrior but now I feel like the Arrow bundle was a total waste of money so why waste another $44USD on the Warrior!
The Arrows could have been great, but with this jerky pitch motion they're just "meh". Hopefully the update fixes the issue!
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@sebastianr Changes have already been made behind the scenes which should make the next update and will hopefully fix this for all - it has had success when tested internally.
In terms of your request for a complete rebuild of the flight dynamics, simply no. When the aircraft was first released, the response was very favourable. It was notably different to the default GA aircraft and the feel was described as being very realistic; this in part was due to the way the flight model was built with a focus on realism which necessitated straying quite considerably from Asobo's default aircraft and the way they had been built. Bear in mind, this is still a big learning curve for us all and we still do not have a stable core flight model - every sim update so far has resulted in the need for adjustments to 3rd party flight models. We are constantly chasing our tails and are only now beginning to get useful information in the SDK.
Personally, I find far worse weather-related flying characteristics in all the default aircraft (ever notice the almost hammer blow style yaw changes with wind?
I have never seen anything like that in the real world).
The PA28 series will NOT be made to fly like the default aircraft just to deal with one area of the flight envelope. There is too much fundamentally wrong with the sim, combined with the aforementioned lack of stability to even entertain that idea.I hope the upcoming update will fix the aircraft suitably for you, because I really want people to enjoy the aircraft. If, after all that, you find it still unflyable then please get back in touch with our support team and I'm sure they will sort you out.
@delta558 said in Pitch "jerks":
The PA28 series will NOT be made to fly like the default aircraft just to deal with one area of the flight envelope. There is too much fundamentally wrong with the sim, combined with the aforementioned lack of stability to even entertain that idea.
The only issue for me is the immersion breaking jerky and stuttering pitch axis in windy conditions... Is there an edit (for people who want to do it) that can be made to the FD file that removes this behaviour even if it means the aircraft is less realistic in other areas? I'd rather have no jerky motion and slightly less realistic FD. As it is, with the jerky pitch axis I can't even be bothered flying the Arrow.
Fix this issue and the Arrow is 10/10, but currently it's just a 7/10 imho.
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@MatthewS
I don’t want to sound like a fanboy or to mute critics, I also don’t own the Arrow line, only the Warrior, but to my liking it’s one of the most realistic aircraft currently in the sim. That is, in terms of handling, there are still issues with performance which I hope will be amended.Regarding the JF Warrior, I haven’t noticed any jerks, as you call them, but I struggle to understand what exactly you mean. I don’t know if you are a real-world flyer, but what exactly you’d expect? An airplane in turbulence feels more like periodic kicks under your chair, not like a boat on smooth waves. And from this perspective, the Warrior's behaviour in turbulence is very natural.
Anyway, here is what you can do. Open the flight_model.cfg, find the [flight_tuning] section. There are two parameters:
pitch_stability
pitch_gyro_stabilityAccording to the SDK description, decreasing the first and increasing the second should reduce the turbulence impact on the aircraft in the corresponding axis. You can try that.
@SebastianR What, if I may, do you like about the default aircraft? You’ve mentioned DA40, but a real DA40 is a pleasure to fly. It’s one of the simplest aircraft I’ve flown after C172. In the sim, on the contrary, it’s as rigorous and ruthless as a rodeo bull. As a different example, when I first loaded the C152 wind challenge I was astonished by how unrealistic that stupid yaw swing was. I wouldn’t like to see JF Warrior fly any close to the default aircraft. They behave completely unnaturally.
P.S.: about $44, it’s a bit cheaper in the other sim store. I’m not sure I can name it here. You know… the market… for the sim… Not the internal marketplace.
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@MatthewS
I don’t want to sound like a fanboy or to mute critics, I also don’t own the Arrow line, only the Warrior, but to my liking it’s one of the most realistic aircraft currently in the sim. That is, in terms of handling, there are still issues with performance which I hope will be amended.Regarding the JF Warrior, I haven’t noticed any jerks, as you call them, but I struggle to understand what exactly you mean. I don’t know if you are a real-world flyer, but what exactly you’d expect? An airplane in turbulence feels more like periodic kicks under your chair, not like a boat on smooth waves. And from this perspective, the Warrior's behaviour in turbulence is very natural.
Anyway, here is what you can do. Open the flight_model.cfg, find the [flight_tuning] section. There are two parameters:
pitch_stability
pitch_gyro_stabilityAccording to the SDK description, decreasing the first and increasing the second should reduce the turbulence impact on the aircraft in the corresponding axis. You can try that.
@SebastianR What, if I may, do you like about the default aircraft? You’ve mentioned DA40, but a real DA40 is a pleasure to fly. It’s one of the simplest aircraft I’ve flown after C172. In the sim, on the contrary, it’s as rigorous and ruthless as a rodeo bull. As a different example, when I first loaded the C152 wind challenge I was astonished by how unrealistic that stupid yaw swing was. I wouldn’t like to see JF Warrior fly any close to the default aircraft. They behave completely unnaturally.
P.S.: about $44, it’s a bit cheaper in the other sim store. I’m not sure I can name it here. You know… the market… for the sim… Not the internal marketplace.
@walterbeech said in Pitch "jerks":
pitch_stability
pitch_gyro_stabilityOk thanks I'll give it a try.
What, if I may, do you like about the default aircraft? You’ve mentioned DA40, but a real DA40 is a pleasure to fly.
That was Sebastian's comment, not mine.
Regarding the JF Warrior, I haven’t noticed any jerks, as you call them, but I struggle to understand what exactly you mean. I don’t know if you are a real-world flyer, but what exactly you’d expect? An airplane in turbulence feels more like periodic kicks under your chair, not like a boat on smooth waves. And from this perspective, the Warrior's behaviour in turbulence is very natural.
Have a look at these videos from Sebastian above, you can clearly see the unnatural jerky movements in the pitch axis. No I'm not a real world pilot, but there's no way a plane in real life can defy the laws of physics and jerk instantly in the pitch axis like that, with seemingly no inertia at all...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zf0rFlkXaU&ab_channel=asmrudnicki
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHUEk4kNSeM&ab_channel=asmrudnicki
