Turbo Commander Progress
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Hey Nick! Looking forward to the Turbo Commanders! In the latest update you released yesterday I couldn't see it in the photos but is the bottom triple flash beacon light going to be modelled if not already? Would loveeeee to have that!
said in Turbo Commander Progress:
Hey Nick! Looking forward to the Turbo Commanders! In the latest update you released yesterday I couldn't see it in the photos but is the bottom triple flash beacon light going to be modelled if not already? Would loveeeee to have that!
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Forget about the triple flash beacon, if you want to see Nick work his magic, lets see how well he does the nosewheel steering system. My guess is, he'll knock it out of the park.
I'll describe it as our instructor did when I bought my Commander 840 (690C):
I don't care who you are, what your background is, how many hours you have, or what you've flown in the past. I'm telling you right now, you CANNOT just get in this airplane and taxi it. By the time we're done, you'll be a master. But there's no pilot on earth that could just get in this airplane and taxi it without instruction.For the uninitiated, the nosewheel steering on all of the Turbo/Jetprop Commanders, 690 through 695B, is hydraulically actuated. The rudder pedals function mostly as you'd expect conventional rudder pedals to work. Slide them back and forth and it moves the rudder, and the toebrakes are typical toebrakes. The pedals, however, are in no way physically connected to the nosewheel. Instead, the first one to two inches of toebrake travel commands the steering actuator to turn the nosewheel in the direction you press. Press further than two inches, and you get brake. The actuator is extremely lethargic and lazy, and there is significant anticipation required when making turns. Want to make a 90 degree left turn? Press the right toebrake into the steering range about 5 seconds earlier than you think you should, and wait. When it starts turning, you need to apply left steering input about halfway through the turn to have it going straight again at the 90 degree point. Any later, and you'll overshoot the turn.
It also behaves completely differently (read, BAD) at low speeds. In fact, the steering actuator isn't even powerful enough to turn the nosewheel when the airplane isn't moving forward. The airplane is considerably easier to maneuver and taxi when you keep it going a little fast.
Much of taxiing this airplane well is understanding how to use beta and differential power to your advantage to help the steering actuator get the nosewheel pointed where you want it.
This whole thing makes takeoffs really interesting until you get used to it. Line up on the runway and keep it rolling to make sure the nosewheel is straight. Then, advance the power levers until they click past the flight idle detent and get the power in quickly. We do this to accelerate the airplane through 40 knots as soon as possible. 0-40 knots on the takeoff roll is what I like to call the "range of goofiness" where its ridiculously easy to overcontrol with the steering and lose directional control. Any directional changes you need to make form 0-40 with a bunch of takeoff power applied need to be made as quick little taps on the steering input. As soon as you've got 40ish knots of airspeed, the rudder is effective, and you immediately drop your toes down to the bottom of the pedals to prevent unintended steering inputs at high speeds, which can quickly send you heading for the weeds.
This is precisely the kind of system I know makes @Black-Square giggle, and I have no doubt he'll implement it perfectly, if he hasn't already.
Cheers.
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Forget about the triple flash beacon, if you want to see Nick work his magic, lets see how well he does the nosewheel steering system. My guess is, he'll knock it out of the park.
I'll describe it as our instructor did when I bought my Commander 840 (690C):
I don't care who you are, what your background is, how many hours you have, or what you've flown in the past. I'm telling you right now, you CANNOT just get in this airplane and taxi it. By the time we're done, you'll be a master. But there's no pilot on earth that could just get in this airplane and taxi it without instruction.For the uninitiated, the nosewheel steering on all of the Turbo/Jetprop Commanders, 690 through 695B, is hydraulically actuated. The rudder pedals function mostly as you'd expect conventional rudder pedals to work. Slide them back and forth and it moves the rudder, and the toebrakes are typical toebrakes. The pedals, however, are in no way physically connected to the nosewheel. Instead, the first one to two inches of toebrake travel commands the steering actuator to turn the nosewheel in the direction you press. Press further than two inches, and you get brake. The actuator is extremely lethargic and lazy, and there is significant anticipation required when making turns. Want to make a 90 degree left turn? Press the right toebrake into the steering range about 5 seconds earlier than you think you should, and wait. When it starts turning, you need to apply left steering input about halfway through the turn to have it going straight again at the 90 degree point. Any later, and you'll overshoot the turn.
It also behaves completely differently (read, BAD) at low speeds. In fact, the steering actuator isn't even powerful enough to turn the nosewheel when the airplane isn't moving forward. The airplane is considerably easier to maneuver and taxi when you keep it going a little fast.
Much of taxiing this airplane well is understanding how to use beta and differential power to your advantage to help the steering actuator get the nosewheel pointed where you want it.
This whole thing makes takeoffs really interesting until you get used to it. Line up on the runway and keep it rolling to make sure the nosewheel is straight. Then, advance the power levers until they click past the flight idle detent and get the power in quickly. We do this to accelerate the airplane through 40 knots as soon as possible. 0-40 knots on the takeoff roll is what I like to call the "range of goofiness" where its ridiculously easy to overcontrol with the steering and lose directional control. Any directional changes you need to make form 0-40 with a bunch of takeoff power applied need to be made as quick little taps on the steering input. As soon as you've got 40ish knots of airspeed, the rudder is effective, and you immediately drop your toes down to the bottom of the pedals to prevent unintended steering inputs at high speeds, which can quickly send you heading for the weeds.
This is precisely the kind of system I know makes @Black-Square giggle, and I have no doubt he'll implement it perfectly, if he hasn't already.
Cheers.
@SinkRate said in Turbo Commander Progress:
This is precisely the kind of system I know makes @Black-Square giggle
I'm impressed that you know exactly why 99% of the features in my aircraft are implemented
What excites me is exactly this kind of uniqueness, and it's what still gets me most excited about working on my aircraft. As you may have read in my last development update, I have already implemented this, and it's surprisingly accurate to what I experienced flying the real machine. The only thing I would add to your description is that the system is so touchy at taxi/takeoff speeds that almost any movement of the actuator results in a departure from the centerline that would be shameful in any other aircraft. The way I described it to a pilot friend was, "the only way to maintain centerline is to enter a meditative state, and merely think about actuating the pedals, rather than actually moving your feet."The system is optional, and disabled by default. I've also added an option to control the steering via the rudder axis, for anyone who doesn't have rudder pedal hardware, because I didn't want them to miss out on the fun.
I'm still very much looking forward to your feedback, btw, @SinkRate. Please don't think I've forgotten you for beta testing. I just want to make sure the sounds are nearly done before sharing the aircraft, since they are surprisingly important to the whole experience. I have a feeling that you will be the hero beta tester for this particular aircraft (there is always one), in just another week or two. Looking forward to it!
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@SinkRate said in Turbo Commander Progress:
This is precisely the kind of system I know makes @Black-Square giggle
I'm impressed that you know exactly why 99% of the features in my aircraft are implemented
What excites me is exactly this kind of uniqueness, and it's what still gets me most excited about working on my aircraft. As you may have read in my last development update, I have already implemented this, and it's surprisingly accurate to what I experienced flying the real machine. The only thing I would add to your description is that the system is so touchy at taxi/takeoff speeds that almost any movement of the actuator results in a departure from the centerline that would be shameful in any other aircraft. The way I described it to a pilot friend was, "the only way to maintain centerline is to enter a meditative state, and merely think about actuating the pedals, rather than actually moving your feet."The system is optional, and disabled by default. I've also added an option to control the steering via the rudder axis, for anyone who doesn't have rudder pedal hardware, because I didn't want them to miss out on the fun.
I'm still very much looking forward to your feedback, btw, @SinkRate. Please don't think I've forgotten you for beta testing. I just want to make sure the sounds are nearly done before sharing the aircraft, since they are surprisingly important to the whole experience. I have a feeling that you will be the hero beta tester for this particular aircraft (there is always one), in just another week or two. Looking forward to it!
@Black-Square Sounds good!
Once we connect, I'll share some photos of my 840 with you, and tell you all about why I think the -10 690C is the ultimate Commander. Talk soon!
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@SinkRate said in Turbo Commander Progress:
This is precisely the kind of system I know makes @Black-Square giggle
I'm impressed that you know exactly why 99% of the features in my aircraft are implemented
What excites me is exactly this kind of uniqueness, and it's what still gets me most excited about working on my aircraft. As you may have read in my last development update, I have already implemented this, and it's surprisingly accurate to what I experienced flying the real machine. The only thing I would add to your description is that the system is so touchy at taxi/takeoff speeds that almost any movement of the actuator results in a departure from the centerline that would be shameful in any other aircraft. The way I described it to a pilot friend was, "the only way to maintain centerline is to enter a meditative state, and merely think about actuating the pedals, rather than actually moving your feet."The system is optional, and disabled by default. I've also added an option to control the steering via the rudder axis, for anyone who doesn't have rudder pedal hardware, because I didn't want them to miss out on the fun.
I'm still very much looking forward to your feedback, btw, @SinkRate. Please don't think I've forgotten you for beta testing. I just want to make sure the sounds are nearly done before sharing the aircraft, since they are surprisingly important to the whole experience. I have a feeling that you will be the hero beta tester for this particular aircraft (there is always one), in just another week or two. Looking forward to it!
@Black-Square I'm so glad to hear this feature was studied and implemented.
I researched and coded a fairly detailed systems mod for the old Carenado AC690 in P3D. I spent many hours hours during the COVID lockdown figuring out how to write an XML gauge that used simconnect to replicate this behavior with the nosewheel steering and brakes. Unfortunately, writing a custom engine model was far beyond my abilities, so the lack of proper beta range somewhat handicapped my efforts.
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@SinkRate said in Turbo Commander Progress:
This is precisely the kind of system I know makes @Black-Square giggle
I'm impressed that you know exactly why 99% of the features in my aircraft are implemented
What excites me is exactly this kind of uniqueness, and it's what still gets me most excited about working on my aircraft. As you may have read in my last development update, I have already implemented this, and it's surprisingly accurate to what I experienced flying the real machine. The only thing I would add to your description is that the system is so touchy at taxi/takeoff speeds that almost any movement of the actuator results in a departure from the centerline that would be shameful in any other aircraft. The way I described it to a pilot friend was, "the only way to maintain centerline is to enter a meditative state, and merely think about actuating the pedals, rather than actually moving your feet."The system is optional, and disabled by default. I've also added an option to control the steering via the rudder axis, for anyone who doesn't have rudder pedal hardware, because I didn't want them to miss out on the fun.
I'm still very much looking forward to your feedback, btw, @SinkRate. Please don't think I've forgotten you for beta testing. I just want to make sure the sounds are nearly done before sharing the aircraft, since they are surprisingly important to the whole experience. I have a feeling that you will be the hero beta tester for this particular aircraft (there is always one), in just another week or two. Looking forward to it!
@Black-Square While I never heard back from you re: help with development of this project, are you looking for any beta testers? I'll remind you that I have several thousand hours in all models of Turbo Commander and spent 14 years instructing on them for firefighting operations. To say I'm familiar with them is a gross understatement
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@SinkRate said in Turbo Commander Progress:
This is precisely the kind of system I know makes @Black-Square giggle
I'm impressed that you know exactly why 99% of the features in my aircraft are implemented
What excites me is exactly this kind of uniqueness, and it's what still gets me most excited about working on my aircraft. As you may have read in my last development update, I have already implemented this, and it's surprisingly accurate to what I experienced flying the real machine. The only thing I would add to your description is that the system is so touchy at taxi/takeoff speeds that almost any movement of the actuator results in a departure from the centerline that would be shameful in any other aircraft. The way I described it to a pilot friend was, "the only way to maintain centerline is to enter a meditative state, and merely think about actuating the pedals, rather than actually moving your feet."The system is optional, and disabled by default. I've also added an option to control the steering via the rudder axis, for anyone who doesn't have rudder pedal hardware, because I didn't want them to miss out on the fun.
I'm still very much looking forward to your feedback, btw, @SinkRate. Please don't think I've forgotten you for beta testing. I just want to make sure the sounds are nearly done before sharing the aircraft, since they are surprisingly important to the whole experience. I have a feeling that you will be the hero beta tester for this particular aircraft (there is always one), in just another week or two. Looking forward to it!
@Black-Square said in Turbo Commander Progress:
The only thing I would add to your description is that the system is so touchy at taxi/takeoff speeds that almost any movement of the actuator results in a departure from the centerline that would be shameful in any other aircraft.
For most models of Turbo Commander that's not true. There are two "levels" of the nosewheel steering, the basic and the "upgraded". The upgraded is twitchy but far fewer of the plane have that. The basic one is wimpy enough that when you push that inch of toe travel to steer, you wonder if it's doing anything so you push more and inadvertently go into braking. That's the risk on takeoff. Not that the steering will overpower the plane but that you'll accidentally go into the braking range while trying to steer and feeling not much happen
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@Black-Square said in Turbo Commander Progress:
The only thing I would add to your description is that the system is so touchy at taxi/takeoff speeds that almost any movement of the actuator results in a departure from the centerline that would be shameful in any other aircraft.
For most models of Turbo Commander that's not true. There are two "levels" of the nosewheel steering, the basic and the "upgraded". The upgraded is twitchy but far fewer of the plane have that. The basic one is wimpy enough that when you push that inch of toe travel to steer, you wonder if it's doing anything so you push more and inadvertently go into braking. That's the risk on takeoff. Not that the steering will overpower the plane but that you'll accidentally go into the braking range while trying to steer and feeling not much happen
@CdnCptMoustache The "better" electrohydraulic system that Gulfstream introduced to the airplane was only ever offered on the Jetprops, and only on the very, very late serial number airplanes. The first 840 that got it was 11729, so they'd already built 128 airplanes before that system came along.
I'm only aware of two airplanes in the United States that still have the system installed. The overwhelming majority of the airplanes were retrofitted back to the original system.
One of the greatest testaments to the design of the airplane is the unusual lack of modifications available outside of special mission applications. There's never been an aerodynamic mod of any kind for the wing (probably the greatest testament of all) and the mods that do exist are miniscule in scope. It's just one of those airplanes they just got right.
I'm kinda biased, but I think the best value mod for the airplane are the MT props. They totally change the entire experience of being in the airplane for 5 hours at a time.
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@CdnCptMoustache The "better" electrohydraulic system that Gulfstream introduced to the airplane was only ever offered on the Jetprops, and only on the very, very late serial number airplanes. The first 840 that got it was 11729, so they'd already built 128 airplanes before that system came along.
I'm only aware of two airplanes in the United States that still have the system installed. The overwhelming majority of the airplanes were retrofitted back to the original system.
One of the greatest testaments to the design of the airplane is the unusual lack of modifications available outside of special mission applications. There's never been an aerodynamic mod of any kind for the wing (probably the greatest testament of all) and the mods that do exist are miniscule in scope. It's just one of those airplanes they just got right.
I'm kinda biased, but I think the best value mod for the airplane are the MT props. They totally change the entire experience of being in the airplane for 5 hours at a time.
@SinkRate the company I worked for had the improved nosewheel system in a 1000 for a bit. And by "a bit" I mean it was in there for about a month while new avionics were getting installed. Back to the terrible old system! I'm really shocked it took them until the 1000 to decide to put a little cut-power button on the outside of the door though. 30 years of locking yourself out of an airplane and finally someone thought of it.
While there may be no mods to the wing, there have been no shortage of AD's. We dealt with many cracked frames, spars, bent tails, etc and all just from regular use. The airframe is, sadly, really showing its age in that way.
We almost went the MT prop route but it wasn't worth losing the 10 or whatever knots of cruise speed just for a bit more climb. Still, I heard good things but never flew any.
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@Black-Square While I never heard back from you re: help with development of this project, are you looking for any beta testers? I'll remind you that I have several thousand hours in all models of Turbo Commander and spent 14 years instructing on them for firefighting operations. To say I'm familiar with them is a gross understatement
@CdnCptMoustache I knew I had seen that username elsewhere this week! You're the author of that fantastic looking GNS 530/430 mod! I was just admiring your work earlier! I actually programmed my own modification for MSFS 2020 that was much along the same lines, and submitted it to Working Title as an example of some small things that could be improved (starting with just the colors...), and the airspace depictions, aux pages, etc., but alas, their priorities were elsewhere, it seems. Congratulations. It seems that you have done a magnificent job. I've always been very fond of that unit in my real world flying, so it brings me joy to see it brought closer to reality.
I just reminded myself of our email conversation from July. You and @SinkRate are still atop my list for expert beta testers. I promise I'm not holding anything back. These aircraft take over a year to complete from start to finish. I just like to have my aircraft very far along in the process before I share them with my testers, because I think it's important to have the whole experience when you go to test something. Sound is almost done, so I would say we're no more than a week or two away from testing time. You will both receive emails from me then.
As for the steering system, unless you believe this is a faux pas, I think I will keep the hyper-sensitive system that I experienced in a 690B, because it's the only system that I can personally attest to the feeling of. I'm hoping you will like how it's implemented, however. As I mentioned above, this was not something MSFS was designed to do, so we're fully outside of the box here.
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@CdnCptMoustache I knew I had seen that username elsewhere this week! You're the author of that fantastic looking GNS 530/430 mod! I was just admiring your work earlier! I actually programmed my own modification for MSFS 2020 that was much along the same lines, and submitted it to Working Title as an example of some small things that could be improved (starting with just the colors...), and the airspace depictions, aux pages, etc., but alas, their priorities were elsewhere, it seems. Congratulations. It seems that you have done a magnificent job. I've always been very fond of that unit in my real world flying, so it brings me joy to see it brought closer to reality.
I just reminded myself of our email conversation from July. You and @SinkRate are still atop my list for expert beta testers. I promise I'm not holding anything back. These aircraft take over a year to complete from start to finish. I just like to have my aircraft very far along in the process before I share them with my testers, because I think it's important to have the whole experience when you go to test something. Sound is almost done, so I would say we're no more than a week or two away from testing time. You will both receive emails from me then.
As for the steering system, unless you believe this is a faux pas, I think I will keep the hyper-sensitive system that I experienced in a 690B, because it's the only system that I can personally attest to the feeling of. I'm hoping you will like how it's implemented, however. As I mentioned above, this was not something MSFS was designed to do, so we're fully outside of the box here.
@Black-Square Looking forward to helping out! You should still have my email address but if you don't, just tag me here. Glad you like the look of the 530/430 mod. I too had talked (or tried to talk) to WT in the past but they seem to have little interest in fully developing some of the avionics beyond how they are now so I took it upon myself. My goal is 100% functionality but realize I'll have to stop at 98%. I've already got most of the hard stuff working great and am working on bug fixes/details.
As the sensitive steering is all you experienced, I say stick with that for now and I can advise on a possible second option for the normal steering once I've got the plane in my digital hands. Normal steering is more like oozing in the direction of the turn. It hints at the turn. It thinks about it. Then you help with differential power or push the pedal more into the brake range and start lurching all over like learning to drive stick all over again. In fact, the normal steering is so bad, I honestly find myself taxiing with pure differential power anyway and only standing on a brake for a hard 180 at the end of the runway.
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You know..... with that steering in mind, a slider that's as simple as "steering strength" could satisfy. It'll sit at max for the sensitive steering and way down near min for the normal steering. Just an idea
