Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?
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@pepe_fr I am not the right one to look at config files. I wouldn’t know what I was look at and wouldn’t care to learn.
I test in sim. I know what I experience in that realm.
I have had a pretty fun night with the Turbo Arrow, and found a too strong cross wind at an airport in Central Europe. So I had to try and see what that was like compared to the NA Arrow. And I just slowly got blown off the runway as I applied rudder to counter. In some ways it was similar to the Arrow. I was being blown off the runway no matter what I did.
But the Turbo was being blown off the runway consistently throughout the takeoff.
The Arrow III seems to get it all at once around 70 MPH. Like it is hit with a microburst of wind before a thunderstorm. Or like a rear tire blew and pulls it in a direction. Everything is going fine and then HOLY S***!!!
Suddenly you have to go full rudder and now you have overcorrected, so you are going the other way across the runway and you are losing speed.
It is kind of fun in an arcade way as it is a challenge and pretty hair raising every time.
More like drifting a car than an airplane.
My guess is it is something between the ground behavior and the air behavior and once a rear wherl gets light enough to lift, the other one wants to stick to the ground and there is a huge difference in friction. One wheel wants to go faster than the other.
And because the Piper is pretty bad in cross winds IRL, a medium cross wind seems to really make for an extra toxic mix.
Which brings me back to tonight with the Turbo. I had it almost sideways on the approach to land at that windy airport! It was crazy.
You may have hit the nail on the head with isolating the issue, but I just am not the right person to look.
@wellred-barron said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
The Arrow III seems to get it all at once around 70 MPH. Like it is hit with a microburst of wind before a thunderstorm. Or like a rear tire blew and pulls it in a direction. Everything is going fine and then HOLY S***!!!
This has been my (disappointing) experience exactly with the Arrow III. The first time I went to take off it happened, and my first thought was "did I just blow the right tire?"
I had not experienced any handling that wild outside some of the warbirds and even with those I was quickly able to get accustomed to their characteristics and was able to compensate. With the Arrow III the only thing I've been able to do to tame it on the ground is turn on auto rudder. Otherwise, it just inevitably turns into Tokyo Drift.
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@wellred-barron said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
The Arrow III seems to get it all at once around 70 MPH. Like it is hit with a microburst of wind before a thunderstorm. Or like a rear tire blew and pulls it in a direction. Everything is going fine and then HOLY S***!!!
This has been my (disappointing) experience exactly with the Arrow III. The first time I went to take off it happened, and my first thought was "did I just blow the right tire?"
I had not experienced any handling that wild outside some of the warbirds and even with those I was quickly able to get accustomed to their characteristics and was able to compensate. With the Arrow III the only thing I've been able to do to tame it on the ground is turn on auto rudder. Otherwise, it just inevitably turns into Tokyo Drift.
@apocv I haven't flown the Arrow in quite awhile, and I had a takeoff today that was beyond wild. I was headed for the side of the runway with full rudder opposite the swerve. I then experimented with the rudder trim, and got it where it was fairly under control. The downside of that is there is no way to read the rudder trim setting prior to takeoff. The other issue is the poor stability in pitch that this aircraft has. You trim for an airspeed, and then it roller coasters if it feels like it. I am done flying this Arrow, not enjoyable at all.
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@apocv I haven't flown the Arrow in quite awhile, and I had a takeoff today that was beyond wild. I was headed for the side of the runway with full rudder opposite the swerve. I then experimented with the rudder trim, and got it where it was fairly under control. The downside of that is there is no way to read the rudder trim setting prior to takeoff. The other issue is the poor stability in pitch that this aircraft has. You trim for an airspeed, and then it roller coasters if it feels like it. I am done flying this Arrow, not enjoyable at all.
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https://support.justflight.com/support/solutions/articles/17000114904-why-is-the-aircraft-behaving-erratically-after-take-off-
@derek I suggested @bobsk8 post here from the Avsim MSFS forums, he's obviously having a very bad experience with the Arrow which seems fairly unique. I'd like to know the answer to your question regarding the flight model but if that's 'modern' we should look more. If the latest patch has been installed, there's no way the 'swerve' should still be there -I've held it on the ground in a straight line to 100kts, well above maximum rotation speed even at the heaviest weights.
Just Flight FDE developer
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@derek I suggested @bobsk8 post here from the Avsim MSFS forums, he's obviously having a very bad experience with the Arrow which seems fairly unique. I'd like to know the answer to your question regarding the flight model but if that's 'modern' we should look more. If the latest patch has been installed, there's no way the 'swerve' should still be there -I've held it on the ground in a straight line to 100kts, well above maximum rotation speed even at the heaviest weights.
@delta558 said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
@derek I suggested @bobsk8 post here from the Avsim MSFS forums, he's obviously having a very bad experience with the Arrow which seems fairly unique. I'd like to know the answer to your question regarding the flight model but if that's 'modern' we should look more. If the latest patch has been installed, there's no way the 'swerve' should still be there -I've held it on the ground in a straight line to 100kts, well above maximum rotation speed even at the heaviest weights.
He really should contact Just Flight support, rather than post in the forum. There is much discussion about our products here, but I would say he is describing something that doesn't work. Given the number of copies successfully buzzing around out there (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KLF986GNg ) it may be a local problem that Support can help with.
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@delta558 said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
@derek I suggested @bobsk8 post here from the Avsim MSFS forums, he's obviously having a very bad experience with the Arrow which seems fairly unique. I'd like to know the answer to your question regarding the flight model but if that's 'modern' we should look more. If the latest patch has been installed, there's no way the 'swerve' should still be there -I've held it on the ground in a straight line to 100kts, well above maximum rotation speed even at the heaviest weights.
He really should contact Just Flight support, rather than post in the forum. There is much discussion about our products here, but I would say he is describing something that doesn't work. Given the number of copies successfully buzzing around out there (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KLF986GNg ) it may be a local problem that Support can help with.
@derek I have a question that should be able to be answered on a forum post. I have played around with the takeoff directional control for a couple of days, and BTW I have about 60 hours real life in a Piper Warrior, so I am fairly familiar how this Arrow should handle on the ground. I have determined that the directional rudder control is very influenced by the rudder trim adjustment. A tad one way or the other with rudder trim causes the aircraft to veer to the left or right excessively as takeoff speed increases.
Now my question is this, how does one set the rudder trim prior to takeoff. I see there is some kind of indicator , a line, that moves when the trim wheel is turned, but there is no way to see what the actual pitch is when adjusting it, for example, 5 degrees right or 3 degrees left, or neutral. What are pilots using to properly adjust the rudder trim prior to takeoff, in order to eliminate the need for excessive rudder input to keep the aircraft centered on the runway as the aircraft picks up speed prior to rotation?
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@bobsk8 said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
What are pilots using to properly adjust the rudder trim prior to takeoff, in order to eliminate the need for excessive rudder input to keep the aircraft centered on the runway as the aircraft picks up speed prior to rotation?
Obviously it's difficult to look vertically down at the rudder trim indicator, so there is parallax error when viewing it from the pilot's position.
From my pilot position I know that the rudder trim is neutral when the white/silver mark inside the aperture is midway between the long centre marks and the short marks closest to me (hope that makes sense). Not a very accurate visual indication, I agree, but I also know what position the wear pattern on the knob should be in for neutral, which gives me a more accurate visual indication. If you have a key/button allocated to the Reset Rudder Trim command, you can use that to set it at neutral.
I don't touch the rudder trim before takeoff. Since installing the latest update (v0.10.3) I'm not experiencing any need for excessive rudder input to keep the aircraft on the runway centreline. Even with a 10 knot crosswind it's not too difficult to keep it on the centreline with rudder and aileron input.
As I understand it, the rudder trim and its indications are as per the real world aircraft that JF modelled their Arrow on. Is the rudder trim indication any better on the real life Warrior you fly? If so, maybe you could explain what is different?
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@bobsk8 said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
What are pilots using to properly adjust the rudder trim prior to takeoff, in order to eliminate the need for excessive rudder input to keep the aircraft centered on the runway as the aircraft picks up speed prior to rotation?
Obviously it's difficult to look vertically down at the rudder trim indicator, so there is parallax error when viewing it from the pilot's position.
From my pilot position I know that the rudder trim is neutral when the white/silver mark inside the aperture is midway between the long centre marks and the short marks closest to me (hope that makes sense). Not a very accurate visual indication, I agree, but I also know what position the wear pattern on the knob should be in for neutral, which gives me a more accurate visual indication. If you have a key/button allocated to the Reset Rudder Trim command, you can use that to set it at neutral.
I don't touch the rudder trim before takeoff. Since installing the latest update (v0.10.3) I'm not experiencing any need for excessive rudder input to keep the aircraft on the runway centreline. Even with a 10 knot crosswind it's not too difficult to keep it on the centreline with rudder and aileron input.
As I understand it, the rudder trim and its indications are as per the real world aircraft that JF modelled their Arrow on. Is the rudder trim indication any better on the real life Warrior you fly? If so, maybe you could explain what is different?
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@sender46 That did the trick. I used the reset rudder trim, and that seemed to work. Thanks.
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Here is a video of how it currently stands:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PdI-CeSyJwxuG95jTCG9id9kmv4pa9aE/view?usp=sharing
Note that trim is neutral, flaps are up. I literally loaded the aircraft and went for a run! In that config, Vr is 70kts which is the highest rotation speed given in the POH. I held the aircraft's nosewheel on the ground until 100kts, at which point the aircraft lifted off by itself. Around 80kts there is a very slight wobble but very easily held with a touch of rudder and your nosewheel has no business being on the ground at that point anyway!
Hope that's acceptable.
@delta558 thank you. Preliminary testing since the update and the issue seems to have been fixed. Thank you.
I will let you know if it pops up again, but I am pretty sure it is fixed. I do need to fly the Arrow more to be sure.
