Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?
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@pepe_fr said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
I guess that you exagerate a little...
Even if I agree that the behavior of the planes during takeoff or landing rolls are really awful indeed.
The problem I see is that there is no weight sensation on the runway : when you touchdown with a plane, there is an immediate weight sensation from the plane : you don't have enough lift and your speed is decreasing quickly.Hey! Thanks for your reply.
In the thread linked above is video of this exact thing happening (Barabba’s post) and I have offered to provide my own video.
Please don’t accuse me of exaggerating. You likely just don’t experience the same issue. It sounds cartoonish because it is.
Be careful. Skeptical posts like yours might have prevented this issue from being taken seriously and being addressed for ten months.
Consider yourself lucky, and give those of us who are unlucky with this issue the benefit of the doubt. A trainer that always veers off the runway at 70 mph, beyond what the pedals/rudder can (or should) correct, is useless as a trainer.
This doesn’t make it hard to follow the center line, it makes it near impossible to stay on the runway. It is a problem. If the runway is surrounded by walls, fences, or trees, it is nearly impossible to avoid a crash.
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Here is a video of how it currently stands:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PdI-CeSyJwxuG95jTCG9id9kmv4pa9aE/view?usp=sharing
Note that trim is neutral, flaps are up. I literally loaded the aircraft and went for a run! In that config, Vr is 70kts which is the highest rotation speed given in the POH. I held the aircraft's nosewheel on the ground until 100kts, at which point the aircraft lifted off by itself. Around 80kts there is a very slight wobble but very easily held with a touch of rudder and your nosewheel has no business being on the ground at that point anyway!
Hope that's acceptable.
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@delta558 thank you for that video!
Let me try to recreate the issue while taking off in similar conditions on my system. This may take me a while to record and edit but I will get started after I make this post.
I assure you, if I were getting that type of performance from my Arrow III, I would not have any issues. In fact, that performance looks like the Turbo Arrow III’s performance on my system and that is very much acceptable to me.
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@wellred-barron I think what you're flying will not be the same - I have been working on updating the files, so this is likely what you will see when the update is released.
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@delta558 thank you!
Then I will spare you the video (although I am getting pretty good at handling the takeoff with my car racing sim twitch reflexes, and it was a rather cool take off!).
I will be sure to let you know if the issue persists after the next patch, but you have me feeling very optimistic. Thank you very much for your hard work!
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@wellred-barron I indeed don't experience that kind of behavior. All FS look weird during rolls, but what you describe with the Arrow III looks very abnormal when compared to the turbo Arrow. That should't be the case !
Are there differences in the config files with wing lift, contact points or prop torque ? That could explain but you would expect the same roll behabior between the different Arrow versions... -
@pepe_fr I am not the right one to look at config files. I wouldn’t know what I was look at and wouldn’t care to learn.
I test in sim. I know what I experience in that realm.
I have had a pretty fun night with the Turbo Arrow, and found a too strong cross wind at an airport in Central Europe. So I had to try and see what that was like compared to the NA Arrow. And I just slowly got blown off the runway as I applied rudder to counter. In some ways it was similar to the Arrow. I was being blown off the runway no matter what I did.
But the Turbo was being blown off the runway consistently throughout the takeoff.
The Arrow III seems to get it all at once around 70 MPH. Like it is hit with a microburst of wind before a thunderstorm. Or like a rear tire blew and pulls it in a direction. Everything is going fine and then HOLY S***!!!
Suddenly you have to go full rudder and now you have overcorrected, so you are going the other way across the runway and you are losing speed.
It is kind of fun in an arcade way as it is a challenge and pretty hair raising every time.
More like drifting a car than an airplane.
My guess is it is something between the ground behavior and the air behavior and once a rear wherl gets light enough to lift, the other one wants to stick to the ground and there is a huge difference in friction. One wheel wants to go faster than the other.
And because the Piper is pretty bad in cross winds IRL, a medium cross wind seems to really make for an extra toxic mix.
Which brings me back to tonight with the Turbo. I had it almost sideways on the approach to land at that windy airport! It was crazy.
You may have hit the nail on the head with isolating the issue, but I just am not the right person to look.
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I have read several times things about the MSFS engine having problem transitionning from a "ground" physics model with the plane sticking on the ground and an "airborne" model.
That's a problem we experience the hard way on the tail draggers.
There is a problem with the plane sticking on the ground without too much weight and friction consideration, and transitionning to the airborne behavior which is not too bad.I would be curious to make some experiments : put the plane against the wind and increase progressively the wind speed up until you reach the rotation airspeed. You should progressively feel your nose wheel (or even more your tail wheel) lighter and lighter. You should experience the tail lifting to be in line of flight, progressively.
We could also try the same experiment with crosswind only... I already imagine the result, I'm pretty sure that you won't experience the upwind wing lifting and the wheels sliding on the tarmac... :(
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@pepe_fr it is very much like the issues with stock planes when MSFS first released. Just… if anything it feels even more exaggerated than that was.
And yes, cross winds do seem to exaggerate this issue. One way to quell It is to fly without weather. It does help things.
I am optimistic the next patch will address this. The video posted above looks great!
I got this Arrow as a trainer. Take off and landing practice. Touch and go.
Just Flight makes brilliant planes but this bugaboo keeps me from using the Arrow III as I intend to use it. And it isn’t a cheap add on!
Anyway, I am not new to sims. I know how it goes. 3rd party devs need to keep up with changes to the sim. Bugs and quirks happen. Sometimes you need to keep a favorite plane in your hangar for a while as it waits for patching (repairs). It isn’t a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it is enough to keep the plane from being useful to me as I intended to use it. There is still fun to be had with it. And if anything, it has encouraged me to learn the Turbo in the interim, which is an acceptable consolation.
I trust Just Flight. I like what they strive to achieve. And there will always be bugs to quell, even for the best devs.
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@wellred-barron said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
The Arrow III seems to get it all at once around 70 MPH. Like it is hit with a microburst of wind before a thunderstorm. Or like a rear tire blew and pulls it in a direction. Everything is going fine and then HOLY S***!!!
This has been my (disappointing) experience exactly with the Arrow III. The first time I went to take off it happened, and my first thought was "did I just blow the right tire?"
I had not experienced any handling that wild outside some of the warbirds and even with those I was quickly able to get accustomed to their characteristics and was able to compensate. With the Arrow III the only thing I've been able to do to tame it on the ground is turn on auto rudder. Otherwise, it just inevitably turns into Tokyo Drift.
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@apocv I haven't flown the Arrow in quite awhile, and I had a takeoff today that was beyond wild. I was headed for the side of the runway with full rudder opposite the swerve. I then experimented with the rudder trim, and got it where it was fairly under control. The downside of that is there is no way to read the rudder trim setting prior to takeoff. The other issue is the poor stability in pitch that this aircraft has. You trim for an airspeed, and then it roller coasters if it feels like it. I am done flying this Arrow, not enjoyable at all.
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@derek I suggested @bobsk8 post here from the Avsim MSFS forums, he's obviously having a very bad experience with the Arrow which seems fairly unique. I'd like to know the answer to your question regarding the flight model but if that's 'modern' we should look more. If the latest patch has been installed, there's no way the 'swerve' should still be there -I've held it on the ground in a straight line to 100kts, well above maximum rotation speed even at the heaviest weights.
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@delta558 said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
@derek I suggested @bobsk8 post here from the Avsim MSFS forums, he's obviously having a very bad experience with the Arrow which seems fairly unique. I'd like to know the answer to your question regarding the flight model but if that's 'modern' we should look more. If the latest patch has been installed, there's no way the 'swerve' should still be there -I've held it on the ground in a straight line to 100kts, well above maximum rotation speed even at the heaviest weights.
He really should contact Just Flight support, rather than post in the forum. There is much discussion about our products here, but I would say he is describing something that doesn't work. Given the number of copies successfully buzzing around out there (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KLF986GNg ) it may be a local problem that Support can help with.
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@derek I have a question that should be able to be answered on a forum post. I have played around with the takeoff directional control for a couple of days, and BTW I have about 60 hours real life in a Piper Warrior, so I am fairly familiar how this Arrow should handle on the ground. I have determined that the directional rudder control is very influenced by the rudder trim adjustment. A tad one way or the other with rudder trim causes the aircraft to veer to the left or right excessively as takeoff speed increases.
Now my question is this, how does one set the rudder trim prior to takeoff. I see there is some kind of indicator , a line, that moves when the trim wheel is turned, but there is no way to see what the actual pitch is when adjusting it, for example, 5 degrees right or 3 degrees left, or neutral. What are pilots using to properly adjust the rudder trim prior to takeoff, in order to eliminate the need for excessive rudder input to keep the aircraft centered on the runway as the aircraft picks up speed prior to rotation?
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@bobsk8 said in Any news on the weird ground roll behavior?:
What are pilots using to properly adjust the rudder trim prior to takeoff, in order to eliminate the need for excessive rudder input to keep the aircraft centered on the runway as the aircraft picks up speed prior to rotation?
Obviously it's difficult to look vertically down at the rudder trim indicator, so there is parallax error when viewing it from the pilot's position.
From my pilot position I know that the rudder trim is neutral when the white/silver mark inside the aperture is midway between the long centre marks and the short marks closest to me (hope that makes sense). Not a very accurate visual indication, I agree, but I also know what position the wear pattern on the knob should be in for neutral, which gives me a more accurate visual indication. If you have a key/button allocated to the Reset Rudder Trim command, you can use that to set it at neutral.
I don't touch the rudder trim before takeoff. Since installing the latest update (v0.10.3) I'm not experiencing any need for excessive rudder input to keep the aircraft on the runway centreline. Even with a 10 knot crosswind it's not too difficult to keep it on the centreline with rudder and aileron input.
As I understand it, the rudder trim and its indications are as per the real world aircraft that JF modelled their Arrow on. Is the rudder trim indication any better on the real life Warrior you fly? If so, maybe you could explain what is different?
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@delta558 thank you. Preliminary testing since the update and the issue seems to have been fixed. Thank you.
I will let you know if it pops up again, but I am pretty sure it is fixed. I do need to fly the Arrow more to be sure.
