Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.
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When autopilot is engaged in heading mode or NAV, it controls the rudder as if it had a yaw damper, and Autocontrol IIIB is not linked to the rudder in any way. Don't know what's the point of it, you should do that with the rudder trim. You can see it clearly in a crosswind situation looking at the rudder pedals or looking at the rudder itself from the outside. And you feel the yaw kick when disengaging the AP.
Before someone asks, all assist are off. -
I suggest you make a ticket.
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When autopilot is engaged in heading mode or NAV, it controls the rudder as if it had a yaw damper, and Autocontrol IIIB is not linked to the rudder in any way. Don't know what's the point of it, you should do that with the rudder trim. You can see it clearly in a crosswind situation looking at the rudder pedals or looking at the rudder itself from the outside. And you feel the yaw kick when disengaging the AP.
Before someone asks, all assist are off.@stagefer Are you sure auto-rudder isn't enabled in the Options menu for assists?
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@stagefer Are you sure auto-rudder isn't enabled in the Options menu for assists?
@leonard-mccoy I have experienced this as well (long before the most recent update), because when I would disengage AP there would be a sudden yaw motion. And I definitely don't have autorudder on. I barely use AP though so I didn't give it much thought.
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@stagefer Are you sure auto-rudder isn't enabled in the Options menu for assists?
@stagefer said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
Before someone asks, all assist are off.
Yes, 100% sure, thanks.
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Given the Hawk has no AP IRL..... I think the way they manage to enable a 'psuedo AP' is irrelevant.
Maybe we should be grateful we have the option of an AP of sorts.
It's not a PMDG airliner. Does it really matter ?
I also believe there is an issue across the board with rudder/steering linkage and visual external rudder deflection, anyway.
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Given the Hawk has no AP IRL..... I think the way they manage to enable a 'psuedo AP' is irrelevant.
Maybe we should be grateful we have the option of an AP of sorts.
It's not a PMDG airliner. Does it really matter ?
I also believe there is an issue across the board with rudder/steering linkage and visual external rudder deflection, anyway.
@gabe777 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
It's not a PMDG airliner. Does it really matter ?
The autopilot has a noticeable effect on the rudder, which it should not have. For those of us that buy Just Flight aircraft for the realism (which is a selling point they promote) yes of course it matters.
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@gabe777 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
It's not a PMDG airliner. Does it really matter ?
The autopilot has a noticeable effect on the rudder, which it should not have. For those of us that buy Just Flight aircraft for the realism (which is a selling point they promote) yes of course it matters.
So how does an autopilot perform a coordinated turn ?
Think about it.
For a start I believe all turns are auto-coordinated in MSFS anyway. There is no need for a rudder in normal flight. Rudder trim is useful though.
So bunging in a fake AP may be a bodge job... but not made easier by fundamental flaws in the sim.
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So how does an autopilot perform a coordinated turn ?
Think about it.
For a start I believe all turns are auto-coordinated in MSFS anyway. There is no need for a rudder in normal flight. Rudder trim is useful though.
So bunging in a fake AP may be a bodge job... but not made easier by fundamental flaws in the sim.
@gabe777 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
So how does an autopilot perform a coordinated turn ?
Interesting and valid question, so I Googled "autopilot coordinated turn" and got this: "Planes can have three different types of autopilot software: one-axis, two-axis, and three-axis. The next-generation aircraft can be guided by improved three-axis autopilots. New generation autopilots can also direct the yaw by controlling the rudder along with rotation and reclining movements."
and this: "it just depends on whether the GA autopilot is 2 axis (eg. KAP140) or 3 axis (eg KFC225 w/yaw damper). A 3 axis unit will co-ordinate turns - a 2 axis unit will not, although this is rarely an issue in reasonably calm winds and at cruise speeds."
I'm pretty sure the Piper Arrow autopilot is not a next generation or new generation autopilot, in which case it doesn't perform coordinated turns.
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@gabe777 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
So how does an autopilot perform a coordinated turn ?
Interesting and valid question, so I Googled "autopilot coordinated turn" and got this: "Planes can have three different types of autopilot software: one-axis, two-axis, and three-axis. The next-generation aircraft can be guided by improved three-axis autopilots. New generation autopilots can also direct the yaw by controlling the rudder along with rotation and reclining movements."
and this: "it just depends on whether the GA autopilot is 2 axis (eg. KAP140) or 3 axis (eg KFC225 w/yaw damper). A 3 axis unit will co-ordinate turns - a 2 axis unit will not, although this is rarely an issue in reasonably calm winds and at cruise speeds."
I'm pretty sure the Piper Arrow autopilot is not a next generation or new generation autopilot, in which case it doesn't perform coordinated turns.
@sender46 I agree that it's far from perfick.
But with the AP system in MSFS presently, I think that pseudo APs shoe-horned in by JF.... (like the entire thing on the Hawk.....obs ! ... and the altitude hold on the Arrows), are just an example of making compromises to make it work.
Far from accurate and not ideal, but better than nothing.
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@sender46 I agree that it's far from perfick.
But with the AP system in MSFS presently, I think that pseudo APs shoe-horned in by JF.... (like the entire thing on the Hawk.....obs ! ... and the altitude hold on the Arrows), are just an example of making compromises to make it work.
Far from accurate and not ideal, but better than nothing.
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@gabe777 Other sim quirks and limitations have been worked around. Rather than just settle for "better than nothing", let's let others more knowledgeable than you and me assess what can or cannot be done.
@sender46 I definitely agree this should be fixed. Have you created a ticket? If not I am happy to do some testing and create one
On the point of "how does an autopilot make a coordinated turn" without a yaw damper - I think it is just because the turns made by the autopilot are gentle enough that it isn't noticeable.
In the warriors and archers I fly IRL (haven't worked my way up to arrows just yet) if your turns are gentle enough you hardly need any rudder. The planes I fly (and I assume arrows are probably the same) have have frise ailerons which reduce adverse yaw
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@sender46 I definitely agree this should be fixed. Have you created a ticket? If not I am happy to do some testing and create one
On the point of "how does an autopilot make a coordinated turn" without a yaw damper - I think it is just because the turns made by the autopilot are gentle enough that it isn't noticeable.
In the warriors and archers I fly IRL (haven't worked my way up to arrows just yet) if your turns are gentle enough you hardly need any rudder. The planes I fly (and I assume arrows are probably the same) have have frise ailerons which reduce adverse yaw
Well the latest update has changed all that Rudder confusion.
Haven't tested it yet, but the setting is now Auto Rudder as it was in FSX and P3D !
Under Accessibilty it now clearly says " Auto coordination of turns " ....AND "Reducing crosswind effect on takeoff."
No mention of landings though.
A lot of people with rudder pedals will be doing cartwheels.
I prefer seperate assistance TBH, splitting takeoff and in-air coordination... but massive improvement if it works.
No-one appears to have noticed yet.
I only noticed because the update reset ALL Accessibilty options to default.
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@sender46 I definitely agree this should be fixed. Have you created a ticket? If not I am happy to do some testing and create one
On the point of "how does an autopilot make a coordinated turn" without a yaw damper - I think it is just because the turns made by the autopilot are gentle enough that it isn't noticeable.
In the warriors and archers I fly IRL (haven't worked my way up to arrows just yet) if your turns are gentle enough you hardly need any rudder. The planes I fly (and I assume arrows are probably the same) have have frise ailerons which reduce adverse yaw
@nickd27 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
@sender46 I definitely agree this should be fixed. Have you created a ticket? If not I am happy to do some testing and create one
I haven't because I assumed Stagefer would have when WalterBeech prompted him, but he may not have. If you are happy to do some testing and create one that's probably worth doing.
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Given the Hawk has no AP IRL..... I think the way they manage to enable a 'psuedo AP' is irrelevant.
Maybe we should be grateful we have the option of an AP of sorts.
It's not a PMDG airliner. Does it really matter ?
I also believe there is an issue across the board with rudder/steering linkage and visual external rudder deflection, anyway.
@gabe777 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
Given the Hawk has no AP IRL..... I think the way they manage to enable a 'psuedo AP' is irrelevant.
We're not talking about the Hawk here, we're talking about the Turbo Arrow, that has a real single axis autopilot, not a pseudo one. And if you want realism in a flight sim this is absolutely relevant to me.
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@sender46 I definitely agree this should be fixed. Have you created a ticket? If not I am happy to do some testing and create one
On the point of "how does an autopilot make a coordinated turn" without a yaw damper - I think it is just because the turns made by the autopilot are gentle enough that it isn't noticeable.
In the warriors and archers I fly IRL (haven't worked my way up to arrows just yet) if your turns are gentle enough you hardly need any rudder. The planes I fly (and I assume arrows are probably the same) have have frise ailerons which reduce adverse yaw
@nickd27 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
I definitely agree this should be fixed. Have you created a ticket? If not I am happy to do some testing and create one
Didn't create a ticket. Please do it if you will. Thanks.
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Well the latest update has changed all that Rudder confusion.
Haven't tested it yet, but the setting is now Auto Rudder as it was in FSX and P3D !
Under Accessibilty it now clearly says " Auto coordination of turns " ....AND "Reducing crosswind effect on takeoff."
No mention of landings though.
A lot of people with rudder pedals will be doing cartwheels.
I prefer seperate assistance TBH, splitting takeoff and in-air coordination... but massive improvement if it works.
No-one appears to have noticed yet.
I only noticed because the update reset ALL Accessibilty options to default.
@gabe777 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
Under Accessibilty it now clearly says " Auto coordination of turns " ....AND "Reducing crosswind effect on takeoff."
I do not see this anywhere in accessibility settings, can you clarify where taht is?
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So I was trying to reproduce this problem but for me the rudder didn't move by itself. I wonder if you have a bug in the sim itself where thee auto-rudder is enabled even though it shows as disabled? Maybe you should try enabling it, restarting the sim, and disabling it again.
During my testing I did find some unusual behaviour with the yoke when using the autopilot in roll mode (not heading mode)
https://youtu.be/XdIMYYLtihE -
@gabe777 said in Autopilot controls the rudder, and it shouldn't.:
Under Accessibilty it now clearly says " Auto coordination of turns " ....AND "Reducing crosswind effect on takeoff."
I do not see this anywhere in accessibility settings, can you clarify where taht is?
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Just took this topic for a test drive, and while I agree that given the AP in this plane should be a single axis AP (minus the ALT hold convenience JF added) at no point did I see the rudder or the rudder pedals move under AP control. Be it in the 15kt crosswind or in heading mode or using the roll knob...or even using the rudder trim.
