Pitch "jerks"
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@ajbarber Voted up but I don't expect it to make any difference.
Quote from another forum: "They will probably just tell you that ...... they don’t support 3rd-party aircraft, or it will vanish in the black hole that is Zendesk’s bug report area."
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@sender46 said in Pitch "jerks":
Quote from another forum: "They will probably just tell you that ...... they don’t support 3rd-party aircraft, or it will vanish in the black hole that is Zendesk’s bug report area."
The first reply to the post said as much. Although, if it had a lot of votes, it would be hard to ignore.
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Just to say we have not given up on this, but have been checking and re-checking geometry and coefficients to see if something has slipped through. So far nothing has. The only thing that has made any difference appears to be the wing thickness ratio. Setting the wing to be as thick as an airliner's (roughly four times the actual thickness of the aircraft's wing) seems to give a slightly better / smoother ride, though who knows what else that will affect!
It's not an answer, it's not a fix, but frustratingly I have built the PA38 using the exact same technique as I always have and you can bet I'm watching for this behaviour now. So far, not a pitch jerk in sight.
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@martyn said in Pitch "jerks":
Our FDE developer has been back working on all our MSFS FDEs again in recent weeks and we'll be providing more information on the next round of updates very soon.
I really hope there is a resolution in sight. The Arrows were my absolute favourite planes to fly. They have been shelved now for over 7 months. The bounciness is at least to me nausea inducing. Funny thing is I do not get sea/ air/ car sick, but this really gets me. While the plane still feels weighty enough it seems there is 0 resistance to the smallest "bump" in the air. I feel like going in an unsprung car with wood wheels across a small cobblestone street :/
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@martyn
Yes.... this is insane with this pitch jerks.... this great model is still unflyable....
What is new from January ? 6 months and still nothing.... ???
all others great GA addons can fly, why this one cant? I really cannot understand?
brds
Martin -
After waiting a long time for a sale of the PA28 bundle, i finally managed to get it, and i LOVE flying this thing. Flying along VORs and ADFs while admiring the scenery and the "old-fashioned" cockpit is pretty much my simming dreams come true. That is, until i'm on final where this pitch problem comes in. The first few flights i thought i just had to get used to the new plane, but this behavior for sure is incorrect and heavily bugged. As i saw someone else describe it too, every little bit of change in elevation of terrain seems to jerk the plane up and down in a completely unnatural fashion. The best way i could describe it is this:
It feels like the landing gear is on stilts going all the way to the ground, and the plane is just "driving" over the bumps/houses on the ground, pushing the (tail of the) aircraft up and down. I've done quite some tests, and it definitely feels like something is very wrong with the flight model concerning the tail of the aircraft; when on final approach, switch to the outside camera, and look at the plane from the side: you'll see the tail going up and down in very sudden jerks, with the nose acting as a pivot and staying in it's place so to speak. Granted, i didn't study aerodynamics and i can't seem to figure out how to see the forces acting on the plane, but it seems to my untrained eye that drag and lift on the tail section of the plane are vastly exaggerated, while the rest (front) of the plane behaves normally. This might explain why some people have reported the problem to be at least partly fixed by changing some coefficients in the configuration, but as i bought this through the MS store, i don't think i am able to try that out.Reading this thread it seems this problem has been around for a long time. It's quite painful that the airplane(s) i waited so long to get, excited by the raving reviews about it's flight model, are disappointing to fly due to their flight model. Still happy with the plane, but i really hope this gets fixed soon!
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Will this ever be resolved? It really is a shame that we are left hanging with this. As someone else states that instant shift is nauseating to me as well. So far it has led to me not purchasing anymore Just Flight stuff... Essentially the money down the drain for the arrow/ turbo arrow with no patch in sight eventhough it was announced last! year.
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@elmond Have a look at the last couple of posts on this thread:
https://community.justflight.com/topic/3650/won-t-stall-and-a-bit-twitchy-in-certain-phases-of-flight/8If there was a setting that said 'make it less jerky', I would already have fixed it. We are waiting on Asobo, the aircraft was built as accurately as possible using the SDK at the time and efforts have been made by multiple people since this was pointed out to eradicate it. I have wasted a ridiculous amount of my spare time / family time trying to chase this down, no other aircraft I have built for this game does it, and I follow a routine when building flight models so they are all built in the same manner.
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@delta558 Thanks for the reply. Still 50 dead bucks for a year and an unflyable plane. Sucks to be me I guess and seemingly a sad state of affairs with Asobo there. Thanks for investing the time to trying and solve it. I hope some day in the future there will be a solution provided by Asobo.
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@elmond I sincerely hope so too - FSX/P3D, whilst lacking in much of the interaction with the environment we have in MSFS, were firmly grounded in aerodynamic coefficients. Paper's such as Roskam's Airplane Flight Dynamics and Automatic Flight Controls were a useful pointer. X-Plane, from my limited work in it, is geometry-based and easily negotiated. MSFS appears to be its own thing, and until the people that make it give us clear instruction anything produced for the game is guesswork. Sucks to be a dev in this situation, sucks to be a customer hanging on a response from that dev who has been hanging on a resonse from Asobo.
If you think this is bad, the Hawk no longer flies as it did when released because of successive game updates, and it has never flown as well in this game as it did in the other sims because in those we were able to create specific behaviours noted in the POH. We have not got enough control in MSFS to do this, and the core flight model does not 'get it right'.
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@delta558 Is there anything users can do to ‘amplify’ this a bit, perhaps bring greater attention to this with Asobo?
As I’ve said elsewhere, the Pipers used to be my go-to aircraft, but I just don’t enjoy flying them anymore. They just feel ‘off’.
It’s a sad state of affairs 😞
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@dopster198 as far as I am aware, they are aware of it and have seen the videos I supplied showing the problem with the aircraft. I doubt there is much more that can be done to bring it to their attention:
Personal opinion, I think the problem with the support is that they have not known what to do with the core flight model from the start - in one of the early pre-release videos Jorg mentioned that the FSX flight model was aerodynamically sound but had issues (forces all applying to one point). Unfortunately, there have been too many comments over the years critical of the tables / coefficients method, mainly from X-Plane users who are strong advocates of the blade element method. (Having worked with both, I will say that neither is perfect but both are far, far easier to work in than MSFS. Both actually make sense in their own way, which MSFS does not). Because of this, Asobo have started to shift away from where they started, effectively removing tables and coefficients and heading towards a geometry-based model. This has left us with a mixture of both though less and less of the former. But the geometry does not always get it right, in fact there are several points where it simply gets it very wrong. Mach Tuck, a straightforward aerodynamic effect which was controlled natively in the FSX/P3D sims via coefficients adjustable for speed (so you could precisely place the point and strength of the effect) does not exist in MSFS. That is just one of many examples. The coefficients we used to use to edge things in the right direction have been removed, and occasionally something new will be added into the mix (max angle scalars, the latest friction notes for ground handling just to give a couple of examples) which are not clearly described or actually make no sense aerodynamically.
It is a mess, a very big, unclear mess and there is a very small team trying to deal with all of the problems raised both in a customer-support role and a practical coding role. I asked a simple question on the dev support channel over a month ago - what do we do when the accurate, precise geometry gives totally incorrect behaviours? Still unanswered. I think they have tried to get a 'best of both worlds' flight model and ended up with something worse than any of the others. I don't envy them!
I'm aware that a lot of my posts these days come across as very negative, the flight model is all I have worked on in the various sims for the best part of twenty years so it is my primary focus. In ALL other aspects, MSFS has killed the competition, it is outstanding in the way it has brought the world to life. I start the game up, sit on the runway and look around in wonder still - yes, two years down the line I still get a sense of amazement at where they have got it to. There will always be room for improvement but as an out-of-the-box game, this is unrivalled. I just wish the core flight model had structure and knew what it wanted to be.
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@delta558 try SP10 beta, now it's look like jerks looks better controlable, MS/Asobo bring some new friction commands and fluid options. Maybe will be easier to deal with this.
I think that each update of the SDK gives more possibilities, unfortunately you have to read it very well and make many attempts.
Especially when it comes to returning to the correct stall values and power / speed at given heights in accordance with the POH.
Do not abandon the Piper series please, it is still the best option currently on the GA market, with the exception of Milviz.
From a financial point of view, I also think that if you make a serious update that will work great, maybe you add more real functionalities like your own and correct load and weight model, fuel etc, there will be new and additional buyers.
You know perfectly well that a very well-made product will always sell and will always be competitive and worth your time.
Maybe this is also the moment where you can contact other studios by asking and solving problems together.
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@sebastianr I have been on SP10 beta since it was released. Regarding the additions to the SDK, 'many attempts' as you say, because it is not aerodynamically sound. What we are having to do is guess what Asobo intended, occasionally helped by perhaps a single line of description.
Regarding the 'fluid' options, I spent a week implimenting the CFD lines on the PA38, adjusting them to see effects and with accurate geometry throughout. It removed all ability to stall and spin, along with several other issues. I know it is work in progress, but at the moment my view is that it is not the way to go. Their way appears to be to artificially increase angles (max angle scalars and "effective deflections", rather than accurate geometry and specific angles. Adding incidence and twist to ailerons at the stall - thus the stall /spin is even more artificial and not reliant on accurate geometry than it was in FSX!!)
I work with two dev studios and am in contact with others. I think it is telling that there appears to be a struggle to find people to work in this field.
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Hey all,
I have done a single flight with the Arrow 3, Turbo Arrow 3 and Turbo Arrow 4 and so far the issue seems a LOT better, especialy on the Turbo's.
They still have the motion but the length of the pitch motion is severly shortened and toned down and atleast on these trips felt MUCH much better.
Can't say how happy i am to have my planes back in a state that does not induce headaches.Oh and on final, with the live weather it was fantastic on all 3 needles to see the IAS jump up and down like 10-20! kts in gusts and it felt so realistic jugling the controls and really working the throttle.