Can’t control climb to cruise
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Greetings,
I purchased the Piper bundle the other day and think this is a great product. I’m really amazed by the detail and complexity. The only feature missing is the RXP GNS bundle. 😀
I’m having a very difficult time getting the aircraft under control for the climb to cruise altitude. According to the ODM I should be able to get a 97 knot climb at 900 FPM. With MP@41 and RPM@2575 I can’t get a 900 FPM at 97 knots. I struggle to get control and trimming seems to put at 120 knots or higher with 1000 FPM or more. It’s really frustrating for me since I lose control and seem to fight more than fly.
I don’t see any settings in the ODM for power or pitch. I’m hoping someone can provide some insight as to what the correct process is for a controlled climb to cruise. I prefer manual control over the AP until cruise.
I appreciate any input.
Thanks,
-Matt
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@MattM1121 Here are a few things to keep in mind...
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The POH performance charts are based on max gross weight (2900 lbs.), so with less weight the aircraft should exceed the performance chart speeds and climb rates. Maintaining any specific speed and climb rate should require less power at lower than max gross weight.
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This aircraft has a "fixed waste gate" turbo charger which requires the throttle to be constantly readjusted during the climb to maintain a constant MP... Also, because of MSFS limitiations, the mixture will also have to be periodically readjusted to maintain max power (peak fuel flow) at higher altitudes during the climb.
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The POH normal climb procedure says that after clearing all obstacles you should reduce power to the cruise climb setting of 75% (33 MP / 2450 RPM) with a speed of 104 KIAS or greater, for the remainder of the climb to cruise altitude.
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Always use trim to set the desired airspeed, then adjust the throttle (MP) and prop pitch (RPM) to set the desired climb / descent rate.
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@retiredman93231 I can't seem to climb at more than 300fpm with the settings suggested by you as per the ODM.
What is a good optimum cruise altitude for the Turbo Arrow?
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@captaindv, During the climb make sure you adjust the Mixture for Best Power (-100 degrees rich of peak on the EGT gauge), which should also be peak fuel flow on the fuel flow gauge... Set the Prop lever for 2450 - 2500 RPM, and set the Throttle so that the fuel flow gauge is at the upper end of the 75% power range. Continuously increase the Throttle as you climb to maintain the 75% power setting. Adjust the elevator trim to hold the nose just below the horizon during the climb, and adjust the rudder trim to keep the slip ball centered. Then, after leveling off at cruise altitude readjust the Mixture for peak EGT (Best Economy). Increase the Prop pitch for a cruise RPM of about 2300, and set the Throttle for 65% cruise power on the fuel flow gauge.
If you are flying solo, set the fuel lever to the Left tank and leave it there until the fuel level in that tank is at least 6 gallons less than the Right tank, which should balance the weight load and minimize the amount of constant aileron deflection required to keep the wings level.
The optimum cruise altitude will depend on the minimum required terrain clearance, the current weather conditions like cloud ceilings, and the wind speed and direction at cruise altitude. But, in general as your altitude increases the air density decreases, which results in increased True Air Speed and Ground Speed... In the U.S. any altitude above 18, 000 ft. is also considered controlled airspace which requires contacting ATC. Requesting Flight Following is actually a good thing to do at any cruise altitude, even in good VFR weather conditions.
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Great stuff there. Thnx.
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Yeah the info by RetiredMan is correct and his suggestions/methods works. Interesting to note however that I just picked up the Cernando Seneca turbo for msfs2020. Whatever they did in their model works with regards to the mixture. In their aircraft I do not have to fiddle with the mixture much at all below critical altitude. Much like my turbo arrow 3 IRL. Just Flights MSFS model requires me to constantly adjust the mixture for best climb even from sea level altitudes which is... not right. I know its not right because I don't have to fiddle with the mixture much below 12k IRL in my turbo arrow 3. I do keep a close eye on it and I've installed a JPI and monitor turbine inlet temp (something I know a lot of real owners have added and would LOVE to see Just flight add like they did with the 750 as an additional option.) And the old autopilot is also gone, replaced with a nice garmin 2 axis... wish we could get this as an option too... older aircraft do get upgraded :-)
Maybe JustFlight could look into how cernando made the mixture work correctly and get it working right for the turbo arrows?
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@capt_nopants Does the Carenado Seneca Turbo have a fixed waste gate turbo charger like this aircraft, or does it use a variable waste gate turbo charger, which will behave much differently? Also, is your real world Turbo Arrow using the stock turbo charger, or has it been upgraded with an aftermarket variable waste gate, like many Turbo Arrow owners have chosen to do?
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@retiredman93231 said in Can’t control climb to cruise:
@captaindv, During the climb make sure you adjust the Mixture for Best Power (-100 degrees rich of peak on the EGT gauge), which should also be peak fuel flow on the fuel flow gauge... Set the Prop lever for 2450 - 2500 RPM, and set the Throttle so that the fuel flow gauge is at the upper end of the 75% power range. Continuously increase the Throttle as you climb to maintain the 75% power setting. Adjust the elevator trim to hold the nose just below the horizon during the climb, and adjust the rudder trim to keep the slip ball centered. Then, after leveling off at cruise altitude readjust the Mixture for peak EGT (Best Economy). Increase the Prop pitch for a cruise RPM of about 2300, and set the Throttle for 65% cruise power on the fuel flow gauge.
If you are flying solo, set the fuel lever to the Left tank and leave it there until the fuel level in that tank is at least 6 gallons less than the Right tank, which should balance the weight load and minimize the amount of constant aileron deflection required to keep the wings level.
The optimum cruise altitude will depend on the minimum required terrain clearance, the current weather conditions like cloud ceilings, and the wind speed and direction at cruise altitude. But, in general as your altitude increases the air density decreases, which results in increased True Air Speed and Ground Speed... In the U.S. any altitude above 18, 000 ft. is also considered controlled airspace which requires contacting ATC. Requesting Flight Following is actually a good thing to do at any cruise altitude, even in good VFR weather conditions.This why I love the arrows!
I just enjoy flying the things without worrying about all that tech stuff :face_with_tongue: -
@retiredman93231 I've had my turbo arrow 3 for many years now. I've flown it stock for several years and and have also had many upgrades for some years now... via kits, stc's and 337's. Currently some major differences than stock is the speed kit I'm using (changes the front cowl completely and gives a k&N filter via stc, included all the flap gap seals, new landing gear doors and covers ect... That kit alone I get about 7-10 kias increase with a better climb of about 200fpm. I've installed the JPI and have TIT sensors. I'm running the stock turbo and turbo housing but I've done two things to the turbo - 1) got the black magic automatic waste gate form Merlyn products (wonderful to have btw - set the power and it goes no need to monkey with stuff any more other than just slight small adjustments.) 2) I've also had an overhaul and slight change via 337 on the turbo to bump up its capability and put better bearings seals in. I've also installed a air oil separator that is a 3 chamber reverse venture system that has an oil return line to cyl 6 (further 337 by the same gentlemen who did my turbo... who happens to work somewhere named Ferrari in their engineering dept. and is my hangar neighbor with an arrow 4 and a moony himself). The obvious 2 axis auto pilot, s mode transponder upgrade and I've installed a HSI. ... lets see... fine wire spark plugs, updated mags, new deep cycle battery, all new electrical bus bar's... .the list goes on. :-)
What I can tell you is that stock - you'd set full rich (even in Denver) and climb that way until about 10k then you can start to pull it back just a bit to maintain 50+ EGT on average. yes you need to keep bumping up the throttle to keep MP where you want...
After the black magic auto waste gate.. set the power once and it stays... and I don't' need to consider pulling it out of full rick until about 15k now to maintain TIT (since i have that sensor). Works more like a Seneca now, OH and I don't have the problem of the "sticky blow-off valve if I over-boost on TO - yup... I can firewall it... zero issues now. Honestly anyone who still has a turbo arrow should get the black magic - its a no brainer upgrade.
As is with all the upgrades my best speed and altitude for cruise now is about 16k @ 195-205kias true and running about 9.5 gph I'm actually considering getting rid of the 6 pack soon and upgrading to the garmin panels but... 45k installed... the other option I've been looking at is to sell my AC and pick up something like a super commander but IDK... lots of ideas but I HAVE my plane in hand and i've put a lot of time and love in the upgrades on my little turbo arrow. :-)
To answer your ? about the cernando turbo seneca - its the later model so variable waste gate but you can still over boost on TO. They are also limited by the overall problem that MSFS doesn't handle turbos right in the game at all for recip engines... whatever they did its BETTER than the just flight turbo arrow but after having more time with it now I've seen the same limitations. I've in fact been doing some research on it and came across this post;
This highlights what is the Microsoft problem that Asobo made... its simply not doing fuel air mixture right with turbos apparently. I went ahead and tried this fix listed in that post and other than the visual issue of the mixture automatically coming back, functionally it now works like the stock turbo arrow and the seneca do (which I also have IRL time in... and a 310... wish MSFS had the 310.. soon?)
Long answer but there ya go.... :-)
P.s. the fixed waste gate getting stuck on over-boost was NOT the worst thing the engine/ac had or was a design flaw... rather it was the primer for engine start squirting fuel into the cyl over the rocker arm and valve flushing any oil you had there away so you were metal to metal on engine start.... and why I have an engine pre-oiler and engine block heater... 2 things I think area MUST for ANY aircraft TBH...
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@capt_nopants WOW! you've done a great job with upgrading your Turbo Arrow... sweet! Thanks for the details on the performance impacts of these upgrades. I totally agree that the problems with realistic mixture and turbocharger behavior in the sim are actually bugs in MSFS, which hopefully Asobo will see fit to fix some day soon, so that turbocharged aircraft can finally be flown correctly.
