Incorrect behavior during gusts of wind



  • Hello

    I would like to describe my problem but it is best illustrated by the posted videos. Well, as you can see, the plane does not behave properly in a windy atmosphere in real weather set, a bit like a wild pigeon additionally including drops in frames at these moments. Additionally, with these vibrations, the indicator of the variometer does not move just as it should if the movements were caused by gusts of wind.
    Have any of you encountered a similar airplane behavior or is it just my case? Of course, the Cessna 152 with mods behaves properly under the same wind conditions.

    Thank you 🙂

    https://youtu.be/_Zf0rFlkXaU

    Sebastian



  • @SebastianR Yes, I see the same. It seems to be generally accepted on the forums that this is an MSFS issue caused by their efforts to make the aircraft movement more fluid but that they have overdone it.

    However, as you have pointed out with the C152 mod, it is interesting that some aircraft modders have apparently been able to compensate for this, showing what can be achieved within the limitations of MSFS.



  • Thanks!

    I am aware of the shortcomings of MSFS but see the video recorded in Cessna with JPLogistics_C152 mod. In quite strong gusts of wind throws the plane in all directions which is consistent with the behavior in reality, but there are no such nervous, wild and abnormal micro movements that do not occur in reality.
    In addition, gusts of wind in the Cessna affect the behavior of the variometer.

    So I am of the opinion that developers should focus on a flight model in windy conditions, because as you can see others have succeeded.

    https://youtu.be/d3NqF4Tr-Cc

    Sebastian



  • @SebastianR said in Incorrect behavior during gusts of wind:

    JPLogistics_C152 mod

    I have a feeling this may be to do with the moments of inertia - the ones used in the 152 mod appear to be quite high for that type of aircraft (almost double), the ones for the PA28 are correctly calculated aerodynamically. It appears that MSFS still has the problem carried over from FSX which results in lower (realistic) MOIs causing stuttery behaviour. I will look at it and see if they can be increased at all without altering the entire behaviour of the aircraft, but in reality this is the sim continuing a very old problem.

    Your answer to that will probably be along the lines of 'well, xyz uses the MOIs successfully', and to an extent I agree. However, this sim is supposed to be about an accurate core flight model. Accuracy throughout (and we're already working behind the scenes to get it even tighter to the figures) but if you double the MOIs, you then have to adjust other settings away from accurate to compensate. If you adjust them, there will be more that needs to be adjusted and it's a never-ending circle until you end up with something that may fly vaguely like the real thing, but has no accuracy whatsoever and the whole point of the new flight model goes out the window!

    Like I said, we'll have a look and see.



  • @Delta558 said in Incorrect behavior during gusts of wind:

    Thank you for the detailed explanation, I hope it will be possible to find a reasonable solution in this matter. The biggest challenge, but also great fun, is to fly correctly in difficult conditions where the plane behaves or tries to behave as it should.

    After all, we do not have beautiful and windless weather every day. The plane does not fly on rails, it is a constant struggle in the streams of moving air.



  • @Delta558 I appreciate your willingness to try and address this. While it may be technically perfect it really kills the immersion when flying. The challenge of a “simulator” is what are you simulating? Perfect numbers (which could be simulated in an Excel worksheet with no graphics) or perfect behavior (giving the proper sensations in the graphical world.)

    I really hope you are able to get it sorted, as it is no fun for me to fly in its current state. This is by far my favorite plane in MSFS and it is a pity that I have it hangared because it just jerks around like I’m flying on an underpowered computer.

    Thanks.



  • I agree about this strange behaviour (since v 0.1.0) .
    As JustFlight is still working on the flight parameters, we can expect some enhancements in a near future.
    Moment of inertia should be a major influent parameter, I agree.



  • @haskell99 said in Incorrect behavior during gusts of wind:
    The challenge of a “simulator” is what are you simulating? Perfect numbers (which could be simulated in an Excel worksheet with no graphics) or perfect behavior (giving the proper sensations in the graphical world.)

    Well, if the core flight model was as good as it is supposed to be, the former should create the latter... 🤣

    Hoping to have an update sorted within the next seven days, see how it behaves then and by all means revisit this thread if need be.



  • @haskell99 said in Incorrect behavior during gusts of wind:

    The challenge of a “simulator” is what are you simulating? Perfect numbers (which could be simulated in an Excel worksheet with no graphics) or perfect behavior (giving the proper sensations in the graphical world.)

    Yep, very well put sir! I think that's the crux of the matter. If compromising on the theoretical numbers compensates for the way MSFS works and makes the aircraft behave as it should that has to be good. And that includes the taking off in particular for me (and landing but that's not as bad as taking off).

    For all that's good about this aircraft, it's a real shame that there are fundamental issues which spoil it. Mine's hangared as well, hoping it can be fixed.



  • @Sender46 Not wishing to be awkward, but that was one of the fundamental selling points of this simulator - that the correct numbers would create the correct effect. Instead, we have a simulator in which that does not happen, but also a core flight model which is constantly being adjusted. Each time that happens, we have to go and redo our work (and not get paid for it), which might be okay for one or two aircraft, but look at just the in-house team's list of aircraft for FSX / P3D. Having to re-do all of them, for example, each time the core FM is altered? Probably (with testing) several months' work?

    As I've said, it is being looked at but we have been using the correct, calculated numbers for years in FSX and P3D, and with adjustments to the wind and turbulence effects we had a very good result. Now, we are moving to guesswork and that is supposed to be an improvement?



  • @Delta558 I understand that you're not being awkward. I don't understand how the MSFS flight model works (I wish I did) but I do get that it must be difficult for developers to work with.



  • I understand that we have a lot of people who are passionate about numbers and compare the performance of the plane to one gallon based on the operating instructions. Unfortunately, in a real plane there is always a margin resulting from the aerodynamics in which the plane flew. Without precise flight reproduction as close as it’s possible with msfs limitations under all conditions, fuel consumption, performance, range and others remain only dry numbers and can never be agreed.

    There is nothing wrong with take off and turn on autopilot on 600 feet and start admiring the views without paying attention to aerodynamics and feeling this plane in hand flying but the greatest pleasure is in flying small aircraft’s when the behavior of the planes are exactly as you know and predict from reality. So let's not distort it by incorrect behavior in the simulator, convincing people that it should or must be so.

    Developers created an almost perfect representation of a real plane, it’s closer and closer by every update to feel this Piper near as in reality. I think we should encourage developers and support them so that they want to solve such issues, bearing in mind that we are a demanding client who can appreciate commitment.



  • @SebastianR I think I know exactly where you are with that comment, and it is appreciated. The margin, as you describe it, should be easily dealt with - using the SWS T37 as an example, there were two T37 instructors on the testing team. Taking the calculated figures from Jan Roskam's paper and using them as a base, the only adjustments based on real-world instructor feedback were minor, and specific to the pitch axis. This is vastly different to what we are dealing with in the new simulator, and much as I do not agree that aerodynamic calculations are the 'be all and end all' of the FDE, they should provide a very solid base from which we are able to take qualified pilot input and adjust accordingly. Currently, there seems to be a chasm between the figures as this sim deals with them and the detail feedback from both pilots and non-pilots. I find that concerning.



  • Hello

    I saw that with last 5 update nothing was changed with jitters in gusty weather in fly behavior. This is much more noticeable now in European spring weather with strong winds and gusts. Any plans for working on this case in 6 update?