Did anyone do some data research?
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Research on airlines and their proper corresponding ICAO/IATA codes has been VERY sloppy, especially when activating substitutes.
In Berlin Tegel a Sun Express (no substitute-properly painted) was identified as Air Kenya.
In LKMT/OSR Smartwings (CZ) aircraft were shown as African Safari Airlines.
Asia is a Mess, too. WAPP Indonesia: Wings Abadi Air ATRs identified as AOM French Airlines (defunct since 2001!), they do have "inherited" their IATA code (IW) but come on!
Italian Ernest Airways (EW) uses the former IATA of Japan Asia Airways, deceased in 2008, and again, the Ernest flights are shown as "Japan Asia" with Japanese regs, in Italy.
In Bucarest, Romania, the whole Airport (LROP/OTP) is filled by white planes shown as "TAR Aerolineas" sporting Mexican registrations instead of belonging to Romanian national carrier TAROM.
In Athens, Greece, white ATRs are identified as "Big Sky Airlines" inop since 2008, US regs, instead of Sky Express Greece (GQ).
In Canada there's an airline operating domestic flights using 738s as "Sunstate AIrlines", an Australian regional al using Aussie regs, I havent identified which one that stands for. Also, Air Canada Rouge flights (different airline, different livery) are showing up as Air Canada mainline.These are all the airports I have checked so far, there is not a single one without issues, the whole database is a MESS!!!
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I see you like being laconic -
LOL yeah, that would "fix" it all but the fake Air Kenya. I know I can turn that off, thank you. But why did you actually provide that "feature" if it is totally useless and even irritating (listing needed repaints obviously includes 50% false information, airlines that ceased to exist a decade ago...)? It would be so easy to fix, just let your cleaning lady google current IATAs for one afternoon, and you're done. Until then, I can turn that off. Thanks again for pointing out such a valuable solution. If it's wrong, just turn it off. Yeah! -
@steffen Not being 'laconic' - the substitute liveries is a feature in the P3D/FSX version and we have simply replicated in X-Plane. The default set of aircraft and liveries is pretty substantial - this feature is only for users that want even more traffic and also for those that want to create their own liveries.
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The problem with doing that is it just hides the issues. Sweeping them under the rug doesn't cut it. I found an Air Berlin repaint today. They have been shut down for 2 years. The errors listed above are not the result of the substitute liveries, they are the end result of multiple database errors. Asking us to sweep them under the rug by turning the setting off, instead of you fixing it, doesn't sit well, at least with me.
I'd like to mention something about the livery issue. When I uninstalled WT. my repaints alone, just the image files (DDS/PNG) was 6.5 gigs. While I don't expect you to have every single livery, it seems to me that someone would have sat down and made sure that you weren't putting out defunct airlines in the release at the very least. Especially so when you consider that the database shouldn't have the defunct planes flying if it was created in the last few months of development.
Please, don't get me wrong I am enjoying Traffic Global. While I had a few bumps getting started, I've been impressed by many things like the load speed, the FPS and the ease of use. It's the things that are wrong because when they're wrong, they're pretty bad, unfortunately (personal opine of course.) The plane behavior during takeoff, landings, and taxi needs more attention. In all my years around aviation, the only plane I've ever seen take off like the way the AI does now is the B-52.
One way to think of this is we're bringing this up, not because we're "hating" its because we think your product, a good one, can be better with more attention to detail. It seems the details are being missed in the process.
Oh and another good point for you to keep in mind, you guys have been engaging your customers as much as possible and I for one have noticed that and think highly of that fact.
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The vast majority of World Traffic 3 liveries were made by users not the developer of WT.
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I am well aware of that. I spent many hours in those files since I was the driving force that went through all of them removing dead airlines, retired planes and renaming numerous others.
That said. When a user runs across errors such has THIS it is frustrating. Peach aviation was issued the APJ code in 2011. I confirmed it with a press release It is hard to for me to reconcile the price you're charging for TG when I run into errors like this. I understand if you have Thomas Cook airlines flying since they just collapsed. But an airline that has been using the code for 8+years?
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The "use substitute" option is there for to provide extra traffic for those users who want more traffic at destinations where there is little traffic, nothing more nothing less. It's built up of old outdated data, you know the stuff you have made your life's work to remove from WT3, it's the ideal substitute to make those dead airports feel alive again. Most people who buy this product don't care how realistic the schedules maybe and how accurate the aircraft and paints that are covering those flights. Many are just happy to have traffic with them wherever that may be. I fairly certain when the Thomas Cook airline is removed it will end up in the subs lists and I'm fine with that, same with all the other white generic aircraft in that list, because I can choose to turn it off if I wish!
@derek Perhaps changing the option name to "legacy airlines/paintless aircraft" rather than "allow substitutes" so that people understand what the option really is about, as people don't read manuals it seems.
As for not being able to reconcile the price, WT3 was £30 when I bought it, I paid a little more than that, about £32 after using my Just Flight loyalty points for Traffic Global. Traffic Global is a way better product at launch that the competition was at launch, so I don't mind paying that little bit more, and it will only get better with more time to iron out the bugs.
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@Andydigital said in Did anyone do some data research?:
The "use substitute" option is there for to provide extra traffic for those users who want more traffic at destinations where there is little traffic, nothing more nothing less. It's built up of old outdated data, you know the stuff you have made your life's work to remove from WT3, it's the ideal substitute to make those dead airports feel alive again.
The use substitute option has nothing to do with the fact that the database they used to generate some or all of the schedules, is woefully inaccurate. Having a Peach airline plane listed as air print is not a substitute it is incorrect, outdated data and that is an issue that should have been addressed in beta, and wasn't.
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@Admiralty-013 The database used is from 2019. It is a proprietary one supplied to the likes of flight ticket companies, airlines etc. It is from the main seller of this data and comes with a hefty price tag.
Peach Airlines (I had to google them) is a small Japanese carrier. I doubt any of the beta team would have known if that was spelt wrong in the database. But, I am also not aware that there is a livery for them in the product. In which case they will be part of the flights that aren't included.
What you are paying for is the aircraft and airline liveries that are included and the code to make them work. The full flight database is vast but this is a similar database (just updated in terms of schedules) to the one used in P3D and spelling mistakes in it is not something we've come across before. I will see if I can work out why Peach Airlines is called Air Print and where in the database it is refered to and that may explain the issue.
On the subject of Big Sky, as another example, there was a carrier of that name that was based in the US and closed down in 2008. However, you can also book flights in Greece at the moment using a carrier of the same name:
https://www.cleartrip.com/flight-booking/big-sky-airlines-athens-heraklion-flights.htmlBear in mind that the whole point of 'use substitutes' is to use a replacement livery because the one designated for that flight doesn't exist. By definition this will be the wrong livery for that flight. Also, there is the issue of airlines code-sharing which makes the global airline database complex and can throw up some unexpected results.
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@Derek said in Did anyone do some data research?:
@Admiralty-013 The database used is from 2019. It is a proprietary one supplied to the likes of flight ticket companies, airlines etc. It is from the main seller of this data and comes with a hefty price tag.
Peach Airlines (I had to google them) is a small Japanese carrier. I doubt any of the beta team would have known if that was spelt wrong in the database. But, I am also not aware that there is a livery for them in the product. In which case they will be part of the flights that aren't included.
@Derek
I'd be looking at your data supplier straight in the face and asking them why they have ICAO codes so far out of date. Especially if you're paying 'hefty' prices for it. I would also consider going directly to the ICAO instead when I looked into getting an updated database from the ICAO, it was roughly 300.00 USD, and I'd expect that the ICAO would be accurate.You are correct in that Peach Airlines is a smaller airline with about 35 A320's. You have a livery for it, its active on flights where I would expect to see it. it is not a substitute for anything. It is a direct result of the database mentioned above. I don't see how you can spell Peach, as Air Print. I am more than aware of the issues of dealing with airlines and reused ICAO codes, I had to deal with it as well, hence why I looked into the costs of an updated list myself. It can be a right royal PITA to figure out who is what at times. And again, this has nothing, at all, to do with substitutes.
Oh, and on codeshares, depending on how deep you want to go down that rabbit hole you'd have a couple of choices. I did have a thought process for it if it became an issue. The airline who physically flies the plane, get the flight, all others, discard. Since a codeshare results in a single airline flying that particular leg anyhow. The issue I can see remaining, of course, is determining the correct airline. The only solution I had since I can't code was manual research.
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"I would also consider going directly to the ICAO instead when I looked into getting an updated database from the ICAO, it was roughly 300.00 USD, and I'd expect that the ICAO would be accurate."
The database includes all the flights etc and is not something you can simply 'grab' off the internet. You also need a licence to re-sell and that won't come at $300.
We will do a refresh of the codes at some point.
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Again, I'm aware of that. But the ICAO code database can be bought directly from the ICAO. You are correct in that you'd probably have to pay more than 300.00 USD however. And incorrect ICAO codes have nothing to do with flight information.
Edit to clarify
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Nice, so some sweet day we might expect to have Wizzair in the sim? Because, like, currently they are flying around as an Indonesian Airline named "Wings", in white? I mean okay, if it happens to an airline that is obscure to you and you are having to google, well... I hope you have heard of Wizzair though, their fleet size is 100+, and they're messed up! I actually wanted to do some repaints again, but that ain't fun given the database is so erroneous. And I don't know about your agreement with your database provider, are you required to publish it including the errors, because you paid for them? No changes allowed, not even a simple replacement (coz that's all it would take)? There might even be a way to let the community do your job by providing an opportunity for the user to correct at least the name string, callsign, and regs - because all I could do now is assigning Wizz repaints to my Indonesian airline with Indonesian regs - that still is not quite immersive, really.
Added: Then there is GOL, again a major airline, this time from Brazil, fleet 100+, comes up as some obscure airline from Burundi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Connexion_Airlines). I guess the flight data in the mysterious expensive database noone is able/allowed to alter use IATA codes (because those are the ones that are outdated and taken over from airlines long being in oblivion) and then the ICAO has been assigned using a table from the 1950s or so. It's such a shame, there's all these precious flight plans already in the plugin, but they are unusable since most of the ICAOs are probably wrong. If I was going to create a GOL repaint, should I save it as "CIX" (Burundi) or "GLO" (Brazil)? IATA is "G3" for both...
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I've been doing some repaints to fill in the "missing liveries" and, like the correspondents above, I wonder just where "JustFlight" got their airline data from. After my repaints, the top four "replaced with unpainted equivalent" are :
City Connexion Airlines (CIX) 738 JFAI_738_CityConnexionAirlines JFAI_737_800 233
Wings Air (WON) 320 JFAI_320_WingsAir JFAI_A320_100 147
VLM Airlines (VLM) 320 JFAI_320_VLMAirlines JFAI_A320_100 142
AOM French Airlines (AOM) AT7 JFAI_AT7_AOMFrenchAirlines JFAI_ATR72 102- City Connexion were an airline from Burundi that ceased operations in 2000
- Wings Air are a subsidiary of Lion Air of Indonesia and don't fly A320's their fleet is entirely ATR's.
- VLM Airways ceased operations in 2018
- AOM French AIrlines ceased operations in 2001.
Did your get your traffic .bgl file from a 1999 edition of MSFS?
I like the product, but some of the errors are embarrasing.
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I like the product, but some of the errors are embarrasing.
Unfortunately, due to the volume of flights etc and the fact that the database draws in information from various different places, it's not possible to pick up all these issues in testing. As I have said to the poster above, we'll be updating some areas of the database fairly soon and this should deal with most of the issues mentioned.
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Nice new patch! So, I decided to do your homework myself, it took me like 3 hours of my valuable time. I'm sure I have not catched all errors, but most. I'm still quite puzzled why you seem to be unable to do this yourself. A helpful link, probably new to you, since you're 10 years behind: https://www.iata.org/publications/Pages/code-search.aspx
Hey, and it's free! Surprise!Here we go:
Fiji Link , IATA FJ, Should be Fiji Airways
OLT Ostfriesische Lufttransport, IATA OL, should be Samoa Airways, ICAO PAO
Olympic Airlines, ICAO OAL name is not Olympic Airways or Airlines, but Olympic Air
TVS/QS Travel Service Polska(?) ist the wrong name for Czech airline Travel Service
Aviacsa (CHP), IATA 6A does not exist since 2009 is Armenia Airways, IATA 6A, ICAO NGT
Volare Airlines (VLE) ceased op 2015, is EasyFly, Colombia, IATA VE, ICAO EFY
Efata Papua Airlines (EIJ) ceased OP in 2009, no Idea what this stands for
Air Europe Italy, ICAO AEL, ceased OP in 2008, should be People's Austria, ICAO PEV, IATA PE
Aerocaribbean (CRN) ceased OP in 2015 should be Silk Way West Airlines (Azerbaijan), IATA 7L, ICAO AZG
Air Next (NXA) ceased OP in 2010, again no idea, seems hard to find IATAs for freight AL
Kato Air (KAT) ceased OP in 2008, shoud be SaudiGulf Airlines, IATA 6S, ICAO SGQ
Interflug (IF) ceased OP in 1990 (lol), should be Fly Baghdad (Iraq), IATA IF, ICAO FBA
Wings of Alaska ceased op in 2017, should be Silverstone Air, Kenya, IATA K5, ICAO SLR
State Orenburg Avia (ORB) ceased, should be Groupe Transair, Senegal, IATA R2, ICAO GTS
Armavia (RNV) ceased 2013, should be Tus Airways, Cyprus, IATA U8, ICAO CYF
Sierra National Airlines (SLA) ceased 2005, is Jin Air Korea, IATA LJ, ICAO JNA
Pamir Air (PIR) should be Manta Air, Maldives, IATA NR, ICAO MAV
American Falcon (AFB) ceased 2009, is Edelweiss Air, Switzerland, IATA WK, ICAO EDW
Galaxy Air (GAL) ceased 2010 , is Smartwings Hungary, 7O/TVL
Pace Airlines (PCE) ceased 2009, is Golden Myanmar Airlines, Y5/GMR
Aero Services Executive (BED) ceased 2010, is Ulendo Airlink, Malawi, W4/NYS
Lufttaxi Fluggesellschaft (LTF) should be Aircompany SCAT, Kazakhstan, DV/VSV
Bristow Helicopters (BHL) surprisingly does operate Helicopters, should be Atlasjet Ukraine, UH/UJX
Hapagfly (HLF) ceased 2007 ,is Air Côte d’Ivoire, HF/VRE
Lufthansa (DLH) does not operate RJ85s (since 2012), why does it show up?
An obscure airline named WaltAir (GOT) is supposed to operate a B777-200, no clue which that is supposed to be, surely not Waltair, lol
There is an Airline called "Airkenya Express" flying around in Europe using Turkish regs, not sure but that's probably Sunexpress Turkey, ICAO SXS, IATA XQProbable errors, no clue what they are standing for:
KD Air (KDC)
Air City (ECE) -
@steffen said in Did anyone do some data research?:
Nice new patch! So, I decided to do your homework myself, it took me like 3 hours of my valuable time. I'm sure I have not catched all errors, but most. I'm still quite puzzled why you seem to be unable to do this yourself. A helpful link, probably new to you, since you're 10 years behind: https://www.iata.org/publications/Pages/code-search.aspx
Hey, and it's free! Surprise!Here we go:
Fiji Link , IATA FJ, Should be Fiji Airways
OLT Ostfriesische Lufttransport, IATA OL, should be Samoa Airways, ICAO PAO
Olympic Airlines, ICAO OAL name is not Olympic Airways or Airlines, but Olympic Air
TVS/QS Travel Service Polska(?) ist the wrong name for Czech airline Travel Service
Aviacsa (CHP), IATA 6A does not exist since 2009 is Armenia Airways, IATA 6A, ICAO NGT
Volare Airlines (VLE) ceased op 2015, is EasyFly, Colombia, IATA VE, ICAO EFY
Efata Papua Airlines (EIJ) ceased OP in 2009, no Idea what this stands for
Air Europe Italy, ICAO AEL, ceased OP in 2008, should be People's Austria, ICAO PEV, IATA PE
Aerocaribbean (CRN) ceased OP in 2015 should be Silk Way West Airlines (Azerbaijan), IATA 7L, ICAO AZG
Air Next (NXA) ceased OP in 2010, again no idea, seems hard to find IATAs for freight AL
Kato Air (KAT) ceased OP in 2008, shoud be SaudiGulf Airlines, IATA 6S, ICAO SGQ
Interflug (IF) ceased OP in 1990 (lol), should be Fly Baghdad (Iraq), IATA IF, ICAO FBA
Wings of Alaska ceased op in 2017, should be Silverstone Air, Kenya, IATA K5, ICAO SLR
State Orenburg Avia (ORB) ceased, should be Groupe Transair, Senegal, IATA R2, ICAO GTS
Armavia (RNV) ceased 2013, should be Tus Airways, Cyprus, IATA U8, ICAO CYF
Sierra National Airlines (SLA) ceased 2005, is Jin Air Korea, IATA LJ, ICAO JNA
Pamir Air (PIR) should be Manta Air, Maldives, IATA NR, ICAO MAV
American Falcon (AFB) ceased 2009, is Edelweiss Air, Switzerland, IATA WK, ICAO EDW
Galaxy Air (GAL) ceased 2010 , is Smartwings Hungary, 7O/TVL
Pace Airlines (PCE) ceased 2009, is Golden Myanmar Airlines, Y5/GMR
Aero Services Executive (BED) ceased 2010, is Ulendo Airlink, Malawi, W4/NYS
Lufttaxi Fluggesellschaft (LTF) should be Aircompany SCAT, Kazakhstan, DV/VSV
Bristow Helicopters (BHL) surprisingly does operate Helicopters, should be Atlasjet Ukraine, UH/UJX
Hapagfly (HLF) ceased 2007 ,is Air Côte d’Ivoire, HF/VRE
Lufthansa (DLH) does not operate RJ85s (since 2012), why does it show up?
An obscure airline named WaltAir (GOT) is supposed to operate a B777-200, no clue which that is supposed to be, surely not Waltair, lol
There is an Airline called "Airkenya Express" flying around in Europe using Turkish regs, not sure but that's probably Sunexpress Turkey, ICAO SXS, IATA XQProbable errors, no clue what they are standing for:
KD Air (KDC)
Air City (ECE)There is a similar post in the X-Plane.org forum:
https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/176159-traffic-global/&page=28#comments
