Notification of updates
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@derek ahh that's the problem.
I don't want the marketing emails because there's too much from everyone and only want updates on purchases.Alot of companies keep these things as separate preferences.
So I guess my suggestion still stands, if we could have an update notification by email for product updates but not bundle it with the marketing of other stuff.
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@taipan303 said in Notification of updates:
@derek ahh that's the problem.
I don't want the marketing emails because there's too much from everyone and only want updates on purchases.Alot of companies keep these things as separate preferences.
So I guess my suggestion still stands, if we could have an update notification by email for product updates but not bundle it with the marketing of other stuff.
Unfortunately, life is not that simple. If you unsubscribe you are saying to the mail marketuing service (Mailchimp, Campaign Monitor etc) that you do not wish to receive mail from X domain. We can't then send you any form of mail - I am fairly sure that even if you sign up for 'mail me when it's released' we can't mail you if you have unsubscribed. In theory, we could send you mail by a different service (or direct) but it is skating on very thin ice legally. If one were to make a mistake it would be a direct breach of privacy terms.
Just to be 100% clear - it is not 'bundled with marketing stuff' - the mail marketeer is simply noting that you don't want to hear from us.
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@derek it's possible to request no marketing without declaring I don't want to be contacted. Many companies have checkboxes when you unsubscribe and can be selective, sometimes as many as 10 categories even if it's overkill. I doubt there's a legal issue with that system or I wouldn't see it so commonly.
In the checkbox case it's not declaring that the customer doesn't want to hear from you, it's just declaring that they have a preference which information they want it receive.
So it sounds more like a technical issue that your choice of provider only has one category (complete unsubscription), which then leads to the assumption that I don't want to hear from you.
I can probably be a marketing subscriber and write a script to filter your emails, but just thought it would be a good suggestion for update notifs on their own.
Legally I still receive emails from you via the forum and support as well as purchases, so I don't think that's really an impediment. -
@taipan303
The forum is a completely different database - theoretically, nothing to do with Just Flight as it is held within the forum and any notifications are sent by the forum software, not by us. As for support, that should be in response to a question - not unsolicited.On day 1 you could sign up andh choose from a list of fifty permutations to receive mail about planes with two engines, planes with ashtrays and trains with carriages. However, if you 'unsubscribe' from the trains with carriages mails it should really stop you getting any mail - you are unsubscibing to mail from the sender, not the subject.
Trust me - we have looked into this a few times over the years and the answer is always the same. If you think about it, it would be a good way to get around people unsubscribing. One person's important update notification is another's spam. -
@derek what you mentioned about the forum being a completely different database is central to my suggestion - an updates database of product owners doesn't have to be the same database as the marketing signups. You mentioned they are not bundled together, but it seems somehow they really are if it's the same server and sender sending them.
As for getting around people unsubsribing, that's why you have separate unsubscribe links/buttons etc. Actually one could argue that linking them together with the same sender is more like forcing a subscription than the other way round, I know that I now feel forced to subscribe and manually filter out the marketing because I want file updates.
We can agree to disagree that it's technically not possible, but I accept it's JF business decision to leave them tied together with marketing and appreciated the debate :)
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@taipan303 said in Notification of updates:
@derek what you mentioned about the forum being a completely different database is central to my suggestion - an updates database of product owners doesn't have to be the same database as the marketing signups. You mentioned they are not bundled together, but it seems somehow they really are if it's the same server and sender sending them.
As for getting around people unsubsribing, that's why you have separate unsubscribe links/buttons etc. Actually one could argue that linking them together with the same sender is more like forcing a subscription than the other way round, I know that I now feel forced to subscribe and manually filter out the marketing because I want file updates.
We can agree to disagree that it's technically not possible, but I accept it's JF business decision to leave them tied together with marketing and appreciated the debate :)
Not sure I made it clear - the forum is not a Just Flight customer database. It is a forum managed by us, but there is no commonality between our customers and forum users - they may as well be JF and Amazon customers.
Our direct mail is sent out on our behalf by a mail service - lots of companies use them. The mail service manages the database and effectively blacklists a customer when they unsubscribe. So, we could ignore those requests and send you mail direct from our server, but that is very risky.
The reason they are 'bundled together' is that they come from the same provider. The only way to 'unbundle' them would be to have two accounts with the mail provider using a different company. Not a route we would want to go down - especially when it came to explaining to somemone why they had to unsubscribe twice to ensure we didn't keep mailing (for example) their deceased relative. -
@derek ignoring all the complexity about the unsubscribe process that comes later - how about allowing someone to subscribe to just product patches/updates?
Why can't we join a list for that?
Can you see where I'm coming from on the customer side, we can't subscribe to this unless we join the marketing list.
If we unsubscribe then sure that's fine, but there's no way for us to resubscribe to product updates - so they are most definitely bundled together.
Hence my suggestion.
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@taipan303 said in Notification of updates:
@derek ignoring all the complexity about the unsubscribe process that comes later - how about allowing someone to subscribe to just product patches/updates?
Why can't we join a list for that?
Can you see where I'm coming from on the customer side, we can't subscribe to this unless we join the marketing list.
If we unsubscribe then sure that's fine, but there's no way for us to resubscribe to product updates - so they are most definitely bundled together.
Hence my suggestion.
OK - let me talk yo through it and hopefully this will make it clear.
- New customer buys a product. Does NOT opt in to any marketing. Ts and Cs cover JF being able to contact the customer about their purchase.
- patch released - JF contacts customer via email service to advise of the patch.
- Customer signs up to receive marketing mail/Newlestter/Whatever.
- Customer receives mail about new product, decides "this is not for me" and unsubscribes.
- Second update released for productr. JF now CANNOT contact that customer as they have confirmed they do not wish to hear from them. The mail service (they all work the same way) has received a notification that this customer does not want to hear from JF, so, when the mails to the unique database for that product go out, that customer is automatically excluded. There is no simple legal way to get someone to opt out of some mails but not others. It wiould be a spammers charter.
It is possible to have a multitude of preferences (as I explained earlier) set up (planes, trains, both, airliners, airports whatever) but as soon as you say "take me off your list" that is what we have to do.
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@derek I'm sorry you had to explain it but it seems my last message was misunderstood. I wasn't discussing the unsubscribe process as we already covered that.
I'm suggesting to offer a Subscribe process. Please see my last post again, I'm suggesting to allow an existing customer to subscribe to patch updates giving you full permission to email us.
It sure works to resubscribe for marketing, why can't it also be allowed to resubscribe for patch updates.
That's my suggestion.
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@taipan303 said in Notification of updates:
I'm suggesting to allow an existing customer to subscribe to patch updates giving you full permission to email us.
See point 1). If you buy something we can contact you if we need to about that product. You don't need to opt in - that is to ensure that we can contact everyone who has bought something, rather than giving them a choice to sign up and pick/choose.
The problem comes if you unsubscribe. It is a red button and it says 'no more mail - irrespective of what it's about'.
For customers who have never signed up to receive email, it is not a problem. However, once you formally unsubscribe you are telling the mail sending company that you don't want to hear from their customer (Just Flight). There is no selectivity.
Yes, we could set up a different company to do our marketing, but that would be somewhat dodgy and, as per the case I mentioned, why should someone have to unsubscribe from multiple lists if they don't wish to hear from us? The law is pretty clear that if you say 'no more mail from these guys' you shouldn't get more mail. -
@derek it's nothing to do with point 1. Your point 1 was about a new customer buying a product and the T&Cs etc. The whole 5 point process you described is the status quo. I wouldn't be making a suggestion if that process wasn't bad.
My suggestion wasn't about the purchase process or the 5 point process you have - my suggestion is for something NEW.
My suggestion is to allow a customer to re-subscribe manually to product updates.
It doesn't matter if there was a previous unsubscription, because permission is given anew by re-subscribing. There's no company in the world I've ever dealt with that doesn't allow someone to subscribe again overriding previous unsubscriptions. If they ever did I'd just change my email address but I don't have to because when I re-subscribe it's explicit permission to email me again.
I think you're arguments are just hashing over the reason why I didn't receive emails originally... when I just want to suggest something new and it's not being understood.
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@taipan303 said in Notification of updates:
@derek it's nothing to do with point 1. Your point 1 was about a new customer buying a product and the T&Cs etc. The whole 5 point process you described is the status quo. I wouldn't be making a suggestion if that process wasn't bad.
My suggestion wasn't about the purchase process or the 5 point process you have - my suggestion is for something NEW.
My suggestion is to allow a customer to re-subscribe manually to product updates.
It doesn't matter if there was a previous unsubscription, because permission is given anew by re-subscribing. There's no company in the world I've ever dealt with that doesn't allow someone to subscribe again overriding previous unsubscriptions. If they ever did I'd just change my email address but I don't have to because when I re-subscribe it's explicit permission to email me again.
I think you're arguments are just hashing over the reason why I didn't receive emails originally... when I just want to suggest something new and it's not being understood.
I do get the point - you are asking for a system that, when someone has unsubscribed, they can resubscribe but only to receive product updates. Definitely possible in theory. But.... I am not sure how receptive the mail services would be to such a suggestion and whether the work involved would pay off or open us up to spamming accusations. Customers would have to know they needed to reusbscribe after unnsubscribing and I am not sure that many customers are affected. For most "go away and stop bothering me" really does mean that.
